Hold help

[Labradorks]

That would be super, thank you. We have field tomorrow, I know we're going to be running that wagon wheel drill again, and working with the push/pull, so it will be interesting to see if he repeats last week in that he gets better as the back to back retrieves happen about bringing the bird all the way back. To answer your questions:

Question 1 and 2 - Its a fairly consistent drop at about 8-10ft from the line. very occasionally further out, but he will do other not-so-desirable behaviours out there on the way back while holding the bird (peeing, going off-line to sniff something..) Anna saw this on the last land component of his WC tests last fall. She saw him do the 1st run of the day, in water, and he got up on the shore and I was able to catch the birds. The other judge then saw him do land, and he brought them across the line and i was able to catch as he dropped. Then back to water for the 3rd run of the day, and basically a repeat of the 1st run, only more eager to get back to me with the birds and get in ready to go for the 2nd bird. It was a hot day, there was a lunch break, and then a bit of a wait and the land was the last run of the day (he'd already qualified for his WC by then under the other judge). it was pretty bad. Out to get the 1st bird, slow coming back, dropped bird about 10ft away, got him to pick up and bring across line, but i don't think i caught it. 2nd bird, he wasn't paying attention and had to hunt for it. Dropped it at least 2x, maybe 3, coming back, had to basically beg him to pick it up the last time and bring across line. He was done.

Question 3, 4 - Often if I can get him to pick it up again (from the 10ft distant drop) and step back a step or 2 as he's coming in, i can get my hand under it as he drops. I am worried that bending down/reaching out is becoming a body language command for him to "Out"

I can often tell by his body language if he will pick it up again before i even tell him to.

I will be very interested to see if we do run a bunch of back to backs again tomorrow, if he gets "better" at bringing the bird all the way back the more we do. He knows he doesn't get to go for another one until he's in position at my side, and by not stopping to drop the bird, that will happen quicker. I have also with no fuss just taken him off and put him up when he was being especially sloppy and not doing well going out, picking up, or any of it -that was a few weeks ago, all the dogs were horrible that day, we all were just saying, well its one of THOSE days. He was better coming out of the truck for the next time but still...

So, I'm reading this wondering if it's really a hold issue? It sounds more like an overall training issue. It sounds like you need to break down the exercises within the exercise, working on them separately and achieving success in each exercise before taking them out into the field. And, finally, putting them together in one exercise (behavior chaining) once each piece is trained to your expectations. I have been there myself!

Every time the dog makes a mistake, it compounds that behavior and makes it harder to get the correct behavior. You'll get to a point where you'll have to unteach the incorrect behavior (i.e., fix bad habits) and it will be much harder and much slower to do so. Personally, I would go back to basics in a controlled environment, set the dog up for success and start over again on the recall and the hold (at least -- it sounds like he has the rest of the behaviors down). Retrain your foundations using a specific and consistent method. Slowly move ahead each time the dog experiences consistent success. It should not take very long, as your dog is mature and trained. I think it took maybe three months for us to to get back into the field where we left off.

I would break down the hold and recall, especially. Once you have those two things down, it sounds like your dog will be successful.

For the recall after a retrieve, I had the same issues as you. My dog had no clue what I expected of him. I started by doing an obedience recall (he knows this very well) in the field. Started short with a long line just in case. Then increased distance. Then increased difficultly (put him behind cover, on the side of a hill, etc.). Then put a bird in his path to scoop up on the way in. This clicked right away, but I worked it really hard as a good recall in the field after a pick-up is invaluable so I wanted to really bring it home to him. I continue to do this (with the bird on the path) and practice perfect recalls.

For the hold I started in the house with a dumbbell. And I owe you a video on how I did it. It was super easy, but hard to explain (for me, anyway).

[Scoutpout]

he does know that he needs to come back to me carrying what he got sent for... but it for sure is an issue of "must do it" as in obedience, vs "i'll get close but then something else might be more interesting than completing the task"
He was better with the bringing back last week. partly because he was really needing exercise, and partly because there were some more back-to-back drills and runs, and i think that its starting to click that you don't get to go have fun getting the next bird until you;re back in heel (and carrying the bird all the way back to me results in that quicker than dropping it short, and getting told to pick it up, and maybe getting put into the truck if that happens)

He doesn';t understand the HOLD concept at all. He CAN hold, in fact, he was just out for a pee, and carried out a bone he was working on, held it all thru the search for the perfect pee spot, smelling the rabbit track, and coming back into the house. He can HOLD a bird from the pickup thru the return, and sometimes shy of the line, sometimes to me. BUT if i get him to TAKE an object, he has no idea what i want him to do with it after he has taken it. no idea what i;m saying when i say HOLD.

We starting having a bit of an issue late this fall with going for the bank (which was at least 1/2 closer than returning thru the water to me) after getting the bird. 2 sends with a longline and his prong collar on, as he got the bird and turned for the bank instead of turning all the way back the way he came (to me) a quick
Uhuh, Here, pop, and he figured it out. so there is lots of hope.
We;ll see what we do tomorrow.

[windycanyon]

Hold is simply a STAY for the mouth. That's it. STAY. So if your dog truly KNOWS what STAY means (ie, don't move a muscle!), and you've enforced it... you are most of the way there. Unfortunately most don't really teach a true Stay.

The HOLD (stay for the mouth) preceeds any FF program btw. My 1 yo knows what Hold is.... she has not been thru FF yet. But she is about to go there....

[Scoutpout]

I think you are about the 3rd person who has put it in those terms, Ann. He does know what STAY means thankfully. but i wonder if he has translated it to his mouth, not just his feet, legs, butt, etc..... I do allow him to turn his head, so long as it doesnt result in any other part of him shifting (in a sit, down, or stand). sigh. its me. not him. its the concentration for this week in earnest.

[windycanyon]

I think you are about the 3rd person who has put it in those terms, Ann. He does know what STAY means thankfully. but i wonder if he has translated it to his mouth, not just his feet, legs, butt, etc..... I do allow him to turn his head, so long as it doesnt result in any other part of him shifting (in a sit, down, or stand). sigh. its me. not him. its the concentration for this week in earnest.

Love my obed trainer friend whose motto is "Say what you mean and Mean what you Say". It is the fairest thing to the dog in the end to not let them guess (or offer behaviors) til they get it right.

[TuMicks]

And say it once... not a gazillion times as you're walking to the line or standing there saying SITSITSITSITSIT (bad habit. Now whistle in mouth, jaw firmly closed.)

[Scoutpout]

oh ya...i have tried so hard over the years we've been together to say something ONCE, and if he doesn't, then do something to get the desired behavior right away. being 9, most of the time that's an "aaahhemmmm" or even "the Look". But walking to line, its still sometimes Here - stop moving and pinch the butt, good boy a few more steps, HERE, butt pinch or tap, along with a back up.... you want to get to the line, you'll actually get there quicker if you stay beside me, 'cause then we;re not backing up every time you get ahead...
I will admit that I did NOTHING yesterday when i got home with him (worked from 6 till about 5 yesterday, get a text down in Savannah from his dog walker saying he was such a sweet boy...) so i'm hoping i can take a few 10 minute sessions tonight and get back to hold. And, homework from Saturday field class - he may only have fun with bumpers and dokkens this week.....

[Scoutpout]

well, got home later than i wanted again last night, but out to the yard we went. he needed some exercise, fine. dokken only. as expected, 1st throw, go out, meh its plastic.... call him back, excited voice on the line, release.... a bit of wander, but out to the dokken, pick it up, trot back. good boy, better. now he's getting prancy at the line. sit. reward for sit is a prompt throw with Go before it hits the ground... now he's into it, so more of a wait before sending, AND walking around with him holding the dokken when he gets back. only drop it when i ask for an OUt. it went pretty well.... hold, as he's coming back to the line, hold as i start to move and he follows me.
inside after a dremel session for the nails, we start with Take, then a few baby steps of not Outing it until he's had it for a few seconds....hoping to work longer on that tonight. He may just be getting the concept...

[windycanyon]

well, got home later than i wanted again last night, but out to the yard we went. he needed some exercise, fine. dokken only. as expected, 1st throw, go out, meh its plastic.... call him back, excited voice on the line, release.... a bit of wander, but out to the dokken, pick it up, trot back. good boy, better. now he's getting prancy at the line. sit. reward for sit is a prompt throw with Go before it hits the ground... now he's into it, so more of a wait before sending, AND walking around with him holding the dokken when he gets back. only drop it when i ask for an OUt. it went pretty well.... hold, as he's coming back to the line, hold as i start to move and he follows me.
inside after a dremel session for the nails, we start with Take, then a few baby steps of not Outing it until he's had it for a few seconds....hoping to work longer on that tonight. He may just be getting the concept...

Just remember to remain calm (I'm almost monotone w/ that Hold work!) and confident. If he moves his mouth, tell him No. Hold!

[Labradorks]

well, got home later than i wanted again last night, but out to the yard we went. he needed some exercise, fine. dokken only. as expected, 1st throw, go out, meh its plastic.... call him back, excited voice on the line, release.... a bit of wander, but out to the dokken, pick it up, trot back. good boy, better. now he's getting prancy at the line. sit. reward for sit is a prompt throw with Go before it hits the ground... now he's into it, so more of a wait before sending, AND walking around with him holding the dokken when he gets back. only drop it when i ask for an OUt. it went pretty well.... hold, as he's coming back to the line, hold as i start to move and he follows me.
inside after a dremel session for the nails, we start with Take, then a few baby steps of not Outing it until he's had it for a few seconds....hoping to work longer on that tonight. He may just be getting the concept...

One thing that is important is that you work on these items separately. The more you allow him to make mistakes in training -- whether it is the hold or the return -- the harder it is to fix/train because each time the mistake is made, it is reinforced.

You want error-free training as much as possible, so you control your environment and set the dog up for success. If he doesn't know hold, quit asking for it unless you are training it.

I do think you need to work on your recall/return and your take-it. There are a lot of pieces to this that need to be trained separately before they are lumped into one exercise.