Timicks I know your pain

[Anna Scott]

Ran the first triple of the season with M today. It was freezing out and I really didn't have too much heart for training. She was wild. We haven't been out for almost 2 weeks as the weather has been crappy since the first of April. Any way her a$$ was off the ground on all three marks so I made her sit and settle then we did secondary selection. I took the long first bird down first, then swung to the short bird to the left and left the middle bird which had fallen behind a pine for last. First two were no problem but the third she was not as confident on. I sent her and she looked back at me so I gave her a verbal back and that solved the problem. Could have been lack of confidence, could have been that she didn't mark the fall well as she didn't see the bumper hit the ground, could have been her nonsense at the beginning came back to bite her. I certainly hope she
settles down as the season progresses. She is showing a lack of confidence on the beginnings of cold blinds as well. We will do some walk outs and pop up to help her through this. I am hoping to get down to Don's before the end of the month.

This has not started off as a good season we have lost two very well respected and long time trailers since the beginning of the month. That and the weather has set us back on our heels.

[TuMicks]

Shoot. So sorry about your losing some friends and colleagues.

I think having a mixture of low confidence AND wild enthusiasm is the worst. Two problems to solve. I have both those problems... but in two separate dogs.

Bridget (AKA... the "princess") will be needed to run as test dog at SNRC's double header the last weekend in April. Prior to going into a genteel retirement she was no-going, popping, spinning, bugging... the whole nine yards. But we threw a second crate into the back of the pick-up and will bring her out with the wild-child this week. I won't be running her. Probably her favorite hunting partner will. (Bridget goes on a big pheasant safari every fall with the pro and her husband. He says he's never hunted behind a better dog.)

We got three days with marks last week... that is to say, we (the training group) did. Rocket Dog got to see a single, crept, and got escorted back to the truck. So we shall see if she demonstrates any added impulse control this coming week. I'm not hoping for a home-run. But any evidence of more circumspection will be appreciated.

We are having another series of spring storms sweeping in off the Pacific, for which we are VERY grateful. At our HT last year, we had zero water. It has become known as the Great 2015 Sierra Dust Bowl. But there is water in the reservoir now, even if it's just running water. Still... we're thrilled. Hope your weather improves soon and M gets her mojo back and her head (and butt) in the right place.

[barry581]

Just out of curiosity, and I ask this as someone who has very little experience with this, how does the dog know they are being denied the retrieve because they crept???

[TuMicks]

It is controversial. There are people who will say "a dog learns nothing sitting in the truck." But the other side of the coin is this: With these hugely high drive dogs, their breeding for generations back has selected for a LOT of prey drive. (Not the only thing, of course... depth perception and marking ability is highly genetic, also. And there are other aspects of temperament that are valued as well.) So, these types of "fire-breathers" want the bird more than they want air and food (metaphorically speaking.) So to give them the bird is an extremely potent reward.

To let them have the bird wipes out a lot of control. A live duck flier is, for these dogs, like mainlining meth. And Rocket Dog had three of them in a 10 day span. So her brain was cooked.

But you asked how she knows she was denied the bird because she crept. She doesn't understand "creep" so much as she knows SIT. She didn't SIT, as in, perfectly still. So as we leave the line, she gets leash corrected on SIT, SIT, SIT... plus denied the bird.

We work on this concept (no foot movement, keep your butt solidly on the ground) with a bumper in the backyard. I give her a firm "SIT" command, stand a few feet in front of her and yell/hoop/fire a starter pistol, toss a bumper nearby in full view, and if she is very, very solid, she gets the bumper. (I am amazed how hard she will work for a bumper. It must be a huge treat for her to pick up something she saw moving, and hold it and bring it to me.) But in the field, when ducks, even dead ducks, are used... her drive is still too much for her perfect SIT. So gradually, we are setting up her training so that a solid sit gets her what she wants.

It is possible that had I known what I was doing from day one when she arrived, I could have/should have shaped this behavior much better. (Bill Hillmann has very convincing video showing how to do it.) Now we are just stepping back and going slowly.

There is a dog in our training group that makes Rocket Dog look obtunded. He's 5 and is just now beginning to show sufficient control to run the Master stake. Spooky great marker. Runs flat out on his blinds. Totally honest on water and hits it like a ton of bricks. Immensely talented dog. But his struggle has been at the line. And even last February, he was leashed up at a HT and removed in the first series. As a result... now when a breaking bird is thrown or a flier is shot close-by, he actually backs up for fear her won't be allowed to get it.

It isn't a quick fix. It takes time. There are pros who just have brutal pressure methods they apply on these dogs. This process we use could take a long time. But she's a young dog and I'd rather her come to the line with enthusiasm and enjoy her work.

Long answer for your question, but it really touched on substantive training/behavioral principles. I'd appreciate any input you have. We're not doctrinaire in our group.

[Annette47]

Sounds like a good plan to me. The only thing I would say is that having her only see (and try to break for) the one bird and then back to the truck for the rest of the day might not be as effective as back to the truck for an hour, try again, and if necessary back to the truck. I’m just thinking that she won’t be spending the whole rest of the day thinking about “why am I in the truck, oh yeah, it’s because I didn’t SIT” - their attention spans just aren’t that long. So the more opportunities she gets to see “I didn’t SIT therefore someone else got MY bird and I went back to the truck” the better.

These dogs are not dumb - she’ll get it eventually! And in my experience, the fact she is a bitch will both help her make the connection much more quickly but also potentially make her more stubborn about having things her way, LOL.

[barry581]

Thanks for the explanation. I understand that the retrieve is the reward, it's the association between the "no sit/creep" and being denied.

Just of curiosity, do you ever toss a bumper/bird, and have her sit while you (or someone, human, not a dog) go pick up the mark?? Maybe that would teach her not every mark is hers.

[TuMicks]

Yes, indeed. That is part of the bumper drill we do in the back-yard. You twitch or move... the bumper is mine. Sometimes when we work on water, we'll tie the dogs out while they dry off in the sun and they watch the marks, etc. going down. I would like to do more of that. But... man-o-man-o, when she's on the line, it's a context that is just really tough for her. She is VERY steady on her honor. But in that context, she knows it's not her bird. (Or, at least, I think that's what she knows. But whatever, she's steady there.)

I could have done things very differently and maybe will if I survive Rocket Dog and get another pup. I think we learn more from the dogs than they learn from us.

[TuMicks]

What we did today:

I took the blind first. (wind was not a factor. Terrain flat. Not a great deal of cover. The edge of the water is over-grown with grass and drops down 6-8" to water surface. Dog loses sight of where she was going and where she'd come from. Rocket Dog hit the water hard, swam a good distance, got disoriented, and swam back toward me. Handled into the water, crossed, got out, I drove her back, then tried an angle left back, and she began to ping-pong. I moved up on her to water's edge and she handled OK to blind after that. We then did middle bird as a single. Made her heel properly (behind my heels), told her SIT... and she did. She ran out and stepped on the bird. Lined her up for the left hand mark, left the bird in her mouth. Told her SIT... she did. I slowly took the bird, slowly put my hand down, waited and sent her. She drove past the short mark, almost into the previous fall... turned around and then found it and scooped it up. Tried to do a similar routine with the far right hand mark, but by this time, she was pretty fried and crept.

But on the whole... I was pretty happy.

[Anna Scott]

Hoping to get out and do some set ups in the next couple of days (dentist this morning) and then the picnic trial on Sunday. The weather is supposed to be really nice. Your pond in the diagram reminds me of Don and Bill's pond. They do all kinds if concept training on that pond. It was designed for teaching and it amazes me how many different concepts they can build with it.I just copied "Judging the High Roller" from the new ONLINE website. Will maybe get it read sometime today.

[TuMicks]

Oh, wowsers!. I knew about the new website and have not had any time to go through the collections. Gotta do that.