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  1. #11
    Senior Dog IRISHWISTLER's Avatar
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    Abulafia, I would contend it is not a "teachers" job to edit real world issues for the children they are charged with teaching. As others have aptly stated, a teachable moment was lost. Demonizing firearms or ignoring the issue does nothing in terms of reality based protection of children. Bringing in a properly trained / certified firearms instructor and having him or her present a firearm safety lecture would do more good than harm.

    I grew up in a home where firearms were present. We knew exactly what they were used for and how to use them safely. Rather than mystify and ignore they existed, we were in fact actually "educated" with regard to what firearms were all about. Seemingly, "educators" in your world need only teach that which they support / agree with, and not present all views of a given issue / subject.

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  2. #12
    Senior Dog Abulafia's Avatar
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    Irishwistler—

    I'm a teacher. Are you?

    If not, then please don't tell me what our job is. And I assure you I won't advise you on yours.
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  3. #13
    Senior Dog Abulafia's Avatar
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    Let us submit other scenarios:

    A child notes, on her "25 things about me" that she is being sexually abused at home. That he has no food. That her parents deal drugs. That his parents re two dads. That her parents are getting a divorce. That his younger sibling died. That her sister is gay.

    Should the teacher suddenly take these perhaps awkward moments to embark on an unanticipated teaching experiment?

    Come on, folks. Teachers are busy enough.
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  4. #14
    Senior Dog IRISHWISTLER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abulafia View Post
    Irishwistler—

    I'm a teacher. Are you?

    If not, then please don't tell me what our job is. And I assure you I won't advise you on yours.
    Abulafia,
    In fact, I do have a background in education extending back to my days as an undergraduate. I did opt not to follow the career path of conventional education long ago and chose law enforcement as a field in which I felt I might contribute to society on a more personally satisfying level. Just as I do not speak for all law enforcement officers, you likely do not speak for all teachers, that said, your admonishment of me to not tell you how to do "our job" would best be specified as "my job". Given the title "teacher" means just that. Teachers teach, the best in the field have less than myopic views and encourage discourse, editors edit.

    We could both cite apples to oranges examples of what may or may not be considered as age appropriate subject material to present in a classroom. This thread was specific to a kid who was proudly learning how to target shoot with his grandfather (under adult supervision), not some kid sneaking off with a stolen handgun that belongs to his gangbanger brother. Perhaps the "teacher" was just following school board policy. There also is the possibility the "teacher" had a personal anti-gun agenda. Interesting that an individual outside of the field of "education" might present more than a single minded point of view on a controversial issue.

    As one who was sworn to defend and uphold the U.S. constitution, I fully support your right to you personal point of view. I would also contend that to inflict a personal and single sided view point on a student and their less than harmful project presentation in the guise of "teaching", as falling to a standard that is less than educational. JMHO.

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  6. #15
    Senior Dog BaconsMom's Avatar
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    I was not raised in a home where firearms were present, let alone talked about. I learned about them as an adult, and at first I was scared of them. In my personal opinion, this is the last thing I want for my children. They should not be scared of guns, but know how to safely handle them and respect them, for their proper uses only. Jake and I plan on having children, and we have already had the discussion about what to do with the guns. They are in a secure safe, so there is no issue there, but we want to teach our children to safely use guns, for hunting and sport shooting if they so desire.

    What I see here is a child who truly enjoys shooting clays as a hobby, and he is being told he can't tell people about that. In my eyes, its like saying to myself as a child, you can waterski at home, but don't tell your classmates about it! Then you are showing the child that it is wrong to do what he is doing. A child who has been taught gun safety and shoots clays under direct supervision of an adult is a perfectly acceptable pastime. As is hunting. If my children grow up wanting to hunt and he was told not to talk about it I would be saddened, because at least personally, hunting and shooting are a big part of my life outside of work, and I don't feel like I should need to hide that from other people.

    Not trying to start a fight, just giving my view.
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  8. #16
    Senior Dog smartrock's Avatar
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    Not knowing the full context for this situation, I'm guessing there are lots of factors that played into this decision. Living where I do in a large urban area with a serious homicide problem, I'm pretty certain no photos of gun use would be permitted on a school project like this. I have a friend who lives in Kansas whose 3 sons shoot, hunt, and have made gun racks as their 4-H projects for the state fair since they were youngsters. I doubt there would be the same level of concern over a kid showing a photo of skeet shooting with his granddad or the kid with his first turkey. Possibly taking the photo off actually drew more attention to it than if they'd allowed him to describe his photo and then moved on to the next kid and his widget collection. No need to turn it into a gun safety lesson if no classmates asked about it. I've worked in schools for close to 20 years and the level of concern about school shootings and shooters on campus is very, very high. I'm sorry it messed up his project but I can understand the school's position on the issue.

  9. #17
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abulafia View Post
    So, where I live, guns aren't everywhere, and kids don't see them everywhere. I am certain that my son has never seen a gun. I know that some of our friends probably own them, but my son has never seen one. He's 12.

    My son doesn't watch TV. He doesn't play FPS video games. He has seen guns in movies. Guns are not everywhere, guys.

    Finally, it is not a teacher's job to teach gun safety: not ever, and not especially in the context of 6th grade students talking about "what you didn't know about me." The teacher might have been pro-gun, or anti-gun, and may have had training in gun safety, or may not have. It is not his or her job to turn an all-class assignment into an ad hoc "let me tell you about gun safety." This was one of 25 "things about me"—why in the world should it become the focus of the kid with a lesson in gun safety? That is indefensible pedagogy. It doesn't hold up.

    All kids should be taught gun safety. At home. Or, if appropriate, by LS officials at a school. Please, folks, don't put this one on the teachers. We are already being told, with straight faces, that we should be armed in our classrooms (Hint: NO. I am not there to save your kids).

    How about just keep guns out of all schools? Educate. Keep them out.
    I salute you for managing your kid's media. Today parents have many more options than we did. My daughter's children have only seen what their parents stream for them... I don't think they've ever seen a commercial at home and when they were at their (other) grandfathers... were perplexed about them when they came on. I found that really interesting this summer when I visited them.

  10. #18
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abulafia View Post
    Let us submit other scenarios:

    A child notes, on her "25 things about me" that she is being sexually abused at home. That he has no food. That her parents deal drugs. That his parents re two dads. That her parents are getting a divorce. That his younger sibling died. That her sister is gay.

    Should the teacher suddenly take these perhaps awkward moments to embark on an unanticipated teaching experiment?

    Come on, folks. Teachers are busy enough.
    Regarding these scenarios... you would, I'm thinking take some actions. In our state, teachers and nurses (physicians... anyone who is a sworn officer or otherwise licensed by the state to practice) have a duty to report any form of child abuse. I would lose my license if i failed to do so. As far as gay parents... cool. Appropriate response by teachers would be to normalize that bit of info, treat it like any other item (and make a mental note that you'll meet them on parent-teacher night.) Parents getting a divorce... a teacher for sure is going to make a mental note that this kid may have trouble academically this year. It's useful information. No food... dealing drugs... yep. Absolutely! That info would be passed along (via chain of command in school) to appropriate social services.

    I actually think it's a brilliant assignment for the first week of school and all of it helpful assessment data for the teacher.

  11. #19
    Senior Dog Abulafia's Avatar
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    First off, I would request that Irishwhistler stop putting the word teacher in quotations; it's unnecessary and insulting. I asked if he was a teacher. He responded that he is not, and then presumed to tell me—a teacher, or more precisely a professor, who has taught for well over two decades—what teachers are to teach. Irishwhistler: stop it. You clearly don't understand teaching or classroom dynamics or a teacher's responsibility to all of his or her students, and the school, and the district, and not your own personal agenda.

    @smartrock
    I've worked in schools for close to 20 years and the level of concern about school shootings and shooters on campus is very, very high. I'm sorry it messed up his project but I can understand the school's position on the issue.


    Absolutely. My own campus is incapable of being secured. I cannot lock or otherwise secure any classroom in which I teach (sorry parents!). I have had non-students enter my classroom while I am teaching and threaten me (frat prank; two kids almost go arrested over it). I have had student career concealed weapons. We have had shootings. Every single teacher I know is terrified of school violence, and especially how little we can do to prevent it or stop it when it occurs. Those fears trump, I am afraid, a kid's project.

    @TuMicks
    Regarding these scenarios... you would, I'm thinking take some actions. In our state, teachers and nurses (physicians... anyone who is a sworn officer or otherwise licensed by the state to practice) have a duty to report any form of child abuse.


    The action I would take is that I would report abuse (and remove a drawing or photo that revealed such, by way of protecting the child's privacy), remove information about drugs, and probably not say anything about the rest of it. My point is that I would not use these as opportunities to embark on an ad hoc teaching assignment. No freaking way would I do this. It's not pedagogically responsible.

    I'm frankly surprised that this is a 6th grade level assignment—but that aside: I'd have done what the teacher did, which was to remove an image of a gun in a child's hand from a first-week project. I admit to chuckling about IW's comment that somehow this means I don't uphold the Constitution (I've read it. I read it a lot. I read it publicly on my campus each year. There's nothing about school assignments there. I promise.), but the fact is that, as a teacher myself, I don't fault the teacher here. I think it's fine that the kid is learning to target shoot. That is an entirely separate matter.

    And of course I manage my son's media! I always chuckle when parents seem to believe they cannot (or that "guns are everywhere"). I control the horizontal and the vertical. That is my job.
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  12. #20
    Senior Dog IRISHWISTLER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abulafia View Post
    First off, I would request that Irishwhistler stop putting the word teacher in quotations; it's unnecessary and insulting. I asked if he was a teacher. He responded that he is not, and then presumed to tell me—a teacher, or more precisely a professor, who has taught for well over two decades—what teachers are to teach. Irishwhistler: stop it. You clearly don't understand teaching or classroom dynamics or a teacher's responsibility to all of his or her students, and the school, and the district, and not your own personal agenda.

    @smartrock
    [/COLOR]
    Absolutely. My own campus is incapable of being secured. I cannot lock or otherwise secure any classroom in which I teach (sorry parents!). I have had non-students enter my classroom while I am teaching and threaten me (frat prank; two kids almost go arrested over it). I have had student career concealed weapons. We have had shootings. Every single teacher I know is terrified of school violence, and especially how little we can do to prevent it or stop it when it occurs. Those fears trump, I am afraid, a kid's project.

    @TuMicks
    [/COLOR]
    The action I would take is that I would report abuse (and remove a drawing or photo that revealed such, by way of protecting the child's privacy), remove information about drugs, and probably not say anything about the rest of it. My point is that I would not use these as opportunities to embark on an ad hoc teaching assignment. No freaking way would I do this. It's not pedagogically responsible.

    I'm frankly surprised that this is a 6th grade level assignment—but that aside: I'd have done what the teacher did, which was to remove an image of a gun in a child's hand from a first-week project. I admit to chuckling about IW's comment that somehow this means I don't uphold the Constitution (I've read it. I read it a lot. I read it publicly on my campus each year. There's nothing about school assignments there. I promise.), but the fact is that, as a teacher myself, I don't fault the teacher here. I think it's fine that the kid is learning to target shoot. That is an entirely separate matter.

    And of course I manage my son's media! I always chuckle when parents seem to believe they cannot (or that "guns are everywhere"). I control the horizontal and the vertical. That is my job.
    Professor,
    I never stated I was not a teacher. In fact, I have taught university level courses as adjunct faculty and have lectured / taught at several law enforcement academies. I am also a parent of two outstanding young ladies (teaching starts at home).

    I am not your student and your condescending command for me to "stop it" would likely be taken as an offensive mini-aggression (commonly used psychobabble in college settings today) by those not expected to be as thick skinned as career law enforcement officers. You may be able to command your students to refrain from exercising their 1st ammendment rights to free speech in the world of academia, but you cannot impose that power trip on myself and other thinkers in a
    free society, t'is me right as an American citizen regardless if you agree with it or otherwise. Many great American men and women sacrificed all to guarantee us all said rights. Again, JMHO as I am not a "teacher".

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