Play Fighting between adult and puppy. - Labrador Retriever Dogs Chat Forum Board - Dogs, Puppies, Photos, Training, Pictures, Rescue Forums

WeegieMac · 02-08-2010, 02:17 AM

Hi there everyone,

I couldn't find a section on the forum that I felt this was ideal for, so the closest I could find was the Health section.

Basically, I'm looking for some advice from experienced Lab owners.

We have a 4 year old black Labrador/Collie X called Max, who we adopted from Dogs Trust in 2006 when he was 9 months old. He came from an abused past, but we've brought him on leaps and bounds and he's our pride and joy, a very timid and friendly dog, albeit not very well socialised in his early days.

We decided to get Max a brother, and 3 weeks ago we brought home Marley, our new black Labrador puppy, bought from a reputable breeder via the Kennel Club in the UK.

At first Max was wary of Marley, and would growl anytime Marley walked near him, but a couple of days ago something changed and they began bounding around with one another. "Brilliant", we thought, but there are some signs that suggest Max may not be 100% playing, which is where I need some advice.

Max will push Marley onto his back, and will hold Marley down with his mouth round his neck, then let him back up. When Marley runs at Max he tries to bite at his chops or ears, resulting in Max "patting" Marley away or growling and snowing a lot of teeth. Now, it's the teeth that worry me ... isn't this aggression? It's not a clenched snarl showing teeth and gums, but a very, very wide open mouth with teeth showing, and sometimes he'll use the side of this open mouth to push Marley away.

Most of the time Marley is underneath, but sometimes Max will roll over onto his back and Marley will leap on him. It's the deep growl from Max and the aforementioned wide mouth with teeth showing/gums exposed that's worrying me and I tend to break up any "play fighting" quickly as I don't want either dog becoming aggressive.

We wanted Max to have a brother to grow old with, be best friends with, but while they will sit and take treats together, sleep together, this play (or not?) fighting is worrying both my wife and I.

Thanks for your time.

Baffle · 02-08-2010, 03:23 AM

Hi ~

Welcome to the board.

Not actually seeing what you're describing means that I could be wrong, but....

It sounds to me like they're engaging in what we refer to as "bitey face". Horrible sounding, snarling, rough play.....and normal with dogs who are friendly with each other....or tolerant with a puppy.

I'd keep an eye on the play sessions, calm Max a bit if anything makes you uncomfortable or if Marley stops coming back for more. As long as Marley seems happy, things are probably OK.

Barb

Baffle · 02-08-2010, 03:44 AM

I just did a search under "bitey face". Some of these threads might reassure you.

http://www.lab-retriever.net/board/s...archid=2330714

Barb

WeegieMac · 02-08-2010, 06:15 AM

Hi Baffle, and thanks for the kind responses.

I've tried to photograph these "sessions", but the movements are just too fast to capture, and my mobile phone doesn't shoot video.

My two main concerns are from Max's side of things, firstly the fact he growls loudly while "playing" with Marley, and secondly that he plays with an open mouth with teeth bared.

Also, while playing today I noticed another two things that Max does, which is firstly to drag Marley back to "play" by pulling him by his ankle/back leg with his mouth. And secondly he will "pin" Marley down by putting his open mouth around Marley's neck. There is no yelping from Marley, but I quickly stepped in to seperate them, although Marley seemed eager to go back for more and was "playing" again within minutes.

They look so great together when getting fed, drinking their water (they happily share the same water disc with no growling or confrontations) and sit side by side when receiving treats or food.

I want them to bond and some have told me this is a major sign that they have bonded as "brothers", but I want to be sure before allowing this kind of "play" to continue. The last thing I want is them honing fighting skills on one another, which could become an issue when Marley is larger than Max ... which having seen his Father (and Mother) at the breeders home, is definitely going to happen!

bearbuddymarie · 02-08-2010, 06:39 AM

I agree with Barb, sounds like Bitey Face which can
be scary if you dont know it is play.
It actually sounds to me like they have a great
relationship !

WeegieMac · 02-08-2010, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbuddymarie

I agree with Barb, sounds like Bitey Face which can be scary if you dont know it is play.
It actually sounds to me like they have a great
relationship !

Hi Marie, and thanks for your reply too!

Ok, I have recorded a video on my mobile phone (it's an iPhone 3G with a video recording app, so the quality isn't as fluid as a real video camera phone), so hopefully you can see for yourself what's going on.

Shortly after this clip, Max rolled over and seemed to "allow" Marley to jump around on top of him, but soon Max's growls got a little more intense so I stopped them. They're now lying on the sofa in a huff!

WeegieMac · 02-08-2010, 07:05 AM

I need to have 10 posts before being able to post links or images!

I shall return with the link soon!

WeegieMac · 02-08-2010, 07:23 AM

Ok ... not many to go.

WeegieMac · 02-08-2010, 07:24 AM

Just one more for the video ...

WeegieMac · 02-08-2010, 07:25 AM

Ok, here we go!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IIWYNoYalw

Excuse my Darth Vader breathing, I have sinus problems.

This is quite mild compared to some encounters, and while Marley comes back for more, some of the growling noises Max make at times sound like he's ready to turn into a wolf or something.

Annette47 · 02-08-2010, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeegieMac

Ok, here we go!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IIWYNoYalw

Excuse my Darth Vader breathing, I have sinus problems.

This is quite mild compared to some encounters, and while Marley comes back for more, some of the growling noises Max make at times sound like he's ready to turn into a wolf or something.

From what I could see on the video, perfectly normal and nothing to worry about. Max's playing style reminds me a lot of how Scully has always played with the other two (she has much more vicious sound effects than the other two) and she's never hurt either one.

Snowshoe · 02-08-2010, 07:35 AM

Quote:

And secondly he will "pin" Marley down by putting his open mouth around Marley's neck.

As said above, without seeing in person it's hard to judge. BUT ........ your Max sounds to me, in the above quote, to be demonstrating ideal behaviour with a pup. Marley is being a brat. Max is showing him he does not like it in a gentle way.

I was pleased to see the exact same behaviour from my boy when my sister's puppy did the same thing. My boy would pin her with a front foot and hold her down with his mouth on her neck. In fact, everything you describe I have seen my boy and the pup do. I did watch to make sure it did not get too rough but truly, my boy always got the worst of it. I made sure he had a place to escape to if the puppy was too persistant. I just commented in a post of mine that puppy has finally lost her puppy license, at 9 months old, and my boy is now being more serious in his chastisements. Now he will bite her with more force and now she has to learn to back off and she is.

We saw only very minimal growling and teeth baring but it did happen and more so as the puppy grew up.

I hope you can post your video. I bet it is fun to watch.

Snowshoe · 02-08-2010, 07:45 AM

Ok, you were posting your video while I wrote. Now I see your video I agree wholeheartedly with Annette47. That is wonderful play and your Max is such a good teacher for a puppy who needs to learn what is appropriate doggy behaviour. I noticed when you told Max "enough" he immediately complied. You are lucky to get such a nice dog and he certainly looks well socialized in dealing with puppies. I'd still watch in case things get a little too exuburant but Max looks great and acts perfectly, IMO. You will have to watch as Marley gets older, his hormones start surging and Max does get fed up with him but the lessons Marley learns now from Max are invaluable.

scrunchie · 02-08-2010, 07:52 AM

Looks and sounds very normal...both of mine are rescues and came to us as young adult dogs...Cooper is the dominant one in our house and Rocky is totally fine with that...Cooper sounds as if he is killing Rocky, but he is just very vocal about everything in life..LOL...Rocky is very quiet but makes a really scary bearing teeth face as if he is going to rip Cooper apart...they all play in a different way...but the growling is normal in our house and the fact that Max was backing off and play bowing, tail wagging and Marley was bouncing towards him, it looked like both were enjoying it. If anyone yelps or you feel Max is stopping play by standing over Marley and not allowing him to get up...or just that Max wants a break and Marley is in his face, then a time out is in question but other than that..let them tire each other out..

I also agree that Max being the older one will keep Marley in line from being a brat...I know that if Rocky doesn't sit instantly and they are waiting for dinner....Cooper will give him a nibble on his neck as if "get your butt down or we will never get fed"... and the funny thing is..he does and fast...so I agree they keep them in line, which is definitely a good thing.

WeegieMac · 02-08-2010, 08:09 AM

Annette, Scrunchie, Snowshoe ...

Thanks for taking the time to watch my video and comment, really appreciated and a massive relief to hear the verdict.

Thanks also for the compliments aimed at Max, it's nice to hear from other owners of the breed that you've raised a good dog, that means a lot. Hopefully Marley turns out just as good as Max has.

I've bookmarked this thread to let my wife read it when she gets home from work tonight, as I'm sure she too will appreciate the input and advice from experienced Lab owners.

I think the advice about letting them tire one another out is good though ... because right now they're out for the count on the sofa!

Seriously though, many thanks to all for your input and time.

02-08-2010, 02:17 AM	#1
WeegieMac House Broken Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 14	Play Fighting between adult and puppy. Hi there everyone, I couldn't find a section on the forum that I felt this was ideal for, so the closest I could find was the Health section. Basically, I'm looking for some advice from experienced Lab owners. We have a 4 year old black Labrador/Collie X called Max, who we adopted from Dogs Trust in 2006 when he was 9 months old. He came from an abused past, but we've brought him on leaps and bounds and he's our pride and joy, a very timid and friendly dog, albeit not very well socialised in his early days. We decided to get Max a brother, and 3 weeks ago we brought home Marley, our new black Labrador puppy, bought from a reputable breeder via the Kennel Club in the UK. At first Max was wary of Marley, and would growl anytime Marley walked near him, but a couple of days ago something changed and they began bounding around with one another. "Brilliant", we thought, but there are some signs that suggest Max may not be 100% playing, which is where I need some advice. Max will push Marley onto his back, and will hold Marley down with his mouth round his neck, then let him back up. When Marley runs at Max he tries to bite at his chops or ears, resulting in Max "patting" Marley away or growling and snowing a lot of teeth. Now, it's the teeth that worry me ... isn't this aggression? It's not a clenched snarl showing teeth and gums, but a very, very wide open mouth with teeth showing, and sometimes he'll use the side of this open mouth to push Marley away. Most of the time Marley is underneath, but sometimes Max will roll over onto his back and Marley will leap on him. It's the deep growl from Max and the aforementioned wide mouth with teeth showing/gums exposed that's worrying me and I tend to break up any "play fighting" quickly as I don't want either dog becoming aggressive. We wanted Max to have a brother to grow old with, be best friends with, but while they will sit and take treats together, sleep together, this play (or not?) fighting is worrying both my wife and I. Thanks for your time.

02-08-2010, 06:39 AM	#5
bearbuddymarie Senior Dog Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Mass Posts: 863 My Mood:	I agree with Barb, sounds like Bitey Face which can be scary if you dont know it is play. It actually sounds to me like they have a great relationship ! __________________ vanilla, chocolate and butterscotch !!!

02-08-2010, 07:52 AM	#14
scrunchie Adult Retriever Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 484 My Mood:	Looks and sounds very normal...both of mine are rescues and came to us as young adult dogs...Cooper is the dominant one in our house and Rocky is totally fine with that...Cooper sounds as if he is killing Rocky, but he is just very vocal about everything in life..LOL...Rocky is very quiet but makes a really scary bearing teeth face as if he is going to rip Cooper apart...they all play in a different way...but the growling is normal in our house and the fact that Max was backing off and play bowing, tail wagging and Marley was bouncing towards him, it looked like both were enjoying it. If anyone yelps or you feel Max is stopping play by standing over Marley and not allowing him to get up...or just that Max wants a break and Marley is in his face, then a time out is in question but other than that..let them tire each other out.. I also agree that Max being the older one will keep Marley in line from being a brat...I know that if Rocky doesn't sit instantly and they are waiting for dinner....Cooper will give him a nibble on his neck as if "get your butt down or we will never get fed"... and the funny thing is..he does and fast...so I agree they keep them in line, which is definitely a good thing. __________________ Cooper: Gotcha Day 10/16/08 Rocky: Gotcha Day 7/28/09

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02-08-2010, 03:23 AM	#2
Baffle Sunnie and Danny Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Maryland Posts: 8,286	Hi ~ Welcome to the board. Not actually seeing what you're describing means that I could be wrong, but.... It sounds to me like they're engaging in what we refer to as "bitey face". Horrible sounding, snarling, rough play.....and normal with dogs who are friendly with each other....or tolerant with a puppy. I'd keep an eye on the play sessions, calm Max a bit if anything makes you uncomfortable or if Marley stops coming back for more. As long as Marley seems happy, things are probably OK. Barb

02-08-2010, 03:44 AM	#3
Baffle Sunnie and Danny Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Maryland Posts: 8,286	I just did a search under "bitey face". Some of these threads might reassure you. http://www.lab-retriever.net/board/s...archid=2330714 Barb

02-08-2010, 06:15 AM	#4
WeegieMac House Broken Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 14	Hi Baffle, and thanks for the kind responses. I've tried to photograph these "sessions", but the movements are just too fast to capture, and my mobile phone doesn't shoot video. My two main concerns are from Max's side of things, firstly the fact he growls loudly while "playing" with Marley, and secondly that he plays with an open mouth with teeth bared. Also, while playing today I noticed another two things that Max does, which is firstly to drag Marley back to "play" by pulling him by his ankle/back leg with his mouth. And secondly he will "pin" Marley down by putting his open mouth around Marley's neck. There is no yelping from Marley, but I quickly stepped in to seperate them, although Marley seemed eager to go back for more and was "playing" again within minutes. They look so great together when getting fed, drinking their water (they happily share the same water disc with no growling or confrontations) and sit side by side when receiving treats or food. I want them to bond and some have told me this is a major sign that they have bonded as "brothers", but I want to be sure before allowing this kind of "play" to continue. The last thing I want is them honing fighting skills on one another, which could become an issue when Marley is larger than Max ... which having seen his Father (and Mother) at the breeders home, is definitely going to happen!

02-08-2010, 07:05 AM	#7
WeegieMac House Broken Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 14	I need to have 10 posts before being able to post links or images! I shall return with the link soon!

02-08-2010, 07:23 AM	#8
WeegieMac House Broken Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 14	Ok ... not many to go.

02-08-2010, 07:24 AM	#9
WeegieMac House Broken Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 14	Just one more for the video ...

02-08-2010, 07:25 AM	#10
WeegieMac House Broken Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 14	Ok, here we go! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IIWYNoYalw Excuse my Darth Vader breathing, I have sinus problems. This is quite mild compared to some encounters, and while Marley comes back for more, some of the growling noises Max make at times sound like he's ready to turn into a wolf or something.

02-08-2010, 07:45 AM	#13
Snowshoe Senior Dog Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2,591	Ok, you were posting your video while I wrote. Now I see your video I agree wholeheartedly with Annette47. That is wonderful play and your Max is such a good teacher for a puppy who needs to learn what is appropriate doggy behaviour. I noticed when you told Max "enough" he immediately complied. You are lucky to get such a nice dog and he certainly looks well socialized in dealing with puppies. I'd still watch in case things get a little too exuburant but Max looks great and acts perfectly, IMO. You will have to watch as Marley gets older, his hormones start surging and Max does get fed up with him but the lessons Marley learns now from Max are invaluable.

02-08-2010, 08:09 AM	#15
WeegieMac House Broken Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 14	Annette, Scrunchie, Snowshoe ... Thanks for taking the time to watch my video and comment, really appreciated and a massive relief to hear the verdict. Thanks also for the compliments aimed at Max, it's nice to hear from other owners of the breed that you've raised a good dog, that means a lot. Hopefully Marley turns out just as good as Max has. I've bookmarked this thread to let my wife read it when she gets home from work tonight, as I'm sure she too will appreciate the input and advice from experienced Lab owners. I think the advice about letting them tire one another out is good though ... because right now they're out for the count on the sofa! Seriously though, many thanks to all for your input and time.