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  1. #11
    Real Retriever PinkDragon14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunDance View Post
    DNA sure doesn't seem like a logical thing, does it? I know kids who look nothing like their parents but apparently are dead ringers for aunts/uncles/grandparents...or even further back.

    I realize I have a "fruit salad" to compare to your basket of pure apples, but my two are mother and son. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
    I guess it'll forever be a mystery of where he got his looks. It's probably down the line somewhere. The breeder had his mom's grandmother (I think that's what side) there, but she looked more American; still, she was a bit more "blocky". I'm assuming it is on his father's side though.

    Does color have anything to do with sides? I know it's completely random (sometimes), but his father was a chocolate and he's a chocolate. That's why I'm assuming that he gets most of his looks from his father's side
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  2. #12
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkDragon14 View Post
    How much would you estimate that it affects their "end" weight? I know it affects other things, but I'm curious as to the weight. I don't remember if the vet mentioned anything about neutering and weight, but we told him that we're looking to neuter him this winter.

    But, it does depend on the dog. We won't really know until next year/year and a half
    When neutered early, they tend to grow up, not out and it does affect their bone structure as well as bulk. It does depend on the dog.

    The 4 months weight times two is still pretty accurate. It may be on the lower side for a non-fat neutered dog and the upper side for a non-fat intact dog or a dog left intact until young adulthood. Could be the difference of about ten lbs, if I had to guess. Again, depends on the dog.

  3. #13
    Real Retriever PinkDragon14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    When neutered early, they tend to grow up, not out and it does affect their bone structure as well as bulk. It does depend on the dog.

    The 4 months weight times two is still pretty accurate. It may be on the lower side for a non-fat neutered dog and the upper side for a non-fat intact dog or a dog left intact until young adulthood. Could be the difference of about ten lbs, if I had to guess. Again, depends on the dog.
    This is somewhat off topic, but what age would you personally recommend for neutering? I know many articles out there say to wait as long as possible. The vet recommended 6 months and up, but he's 20 weeks (so roughly 5 months) today. We definitely won't be doing anything until closer to Christmas/after Christmas (Merry Christmas, Murphy? LOL). I just don't want him to have any negative effects from doing it too early.

    I *think* our other lab was spayed at 8 months, but I'd have to double check. But again, she was a different dog.

    IMO, I don't think he really needs the "extra" muscle for anything in particular. He isn't a hunting dog or anything of that nature - just a growing lap dog who thinks he's part cat. I could be wrong with that though.

    I'm hoping he ends somewhere in the 80lb range. Nothing like a big lap dog to keep you warm! LOL
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  4. #14
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    Honestly, I would wait until 18 months to 2 years. Waiting for them to be fully mature isn’t just about extra muscle - if you neuter males too early, they grow differently than they should - specifically the long bones grow for longer than they otherwise would (why neutered males end up taller and leggier). That can throw off the joint alignments, so neutered males may be more vulnerable to ACL tears and other injuries.

    Unless you need him neutered for doggy daycare or equivalent, there’s really no reason to do it earlier. Most of the issues that intact males supposedly have (humping, marking, etc.) are simply training issues and are not inevitable.
    Annette

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  6. #15
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkDragon14 View Post
    This is somewhat off topic, but what age would you personally recommend for neutering? I know many articles out there say to wait as long as possible. The vet recommended 6 months and up, but he's 20 weeks (so roughly 5 months) today. We definitely won't be doing anything until closer to Christmas/after Christmas (Merry Christmas, Murphy? LOL). I just don't want him to have any negative effects from doing it too early.

    I *think* our other lab was spayed at 8 months, but I'd have to double check. But again, she was a different dog.

    IMO, I don't think he really needs the "extra" muscle for anything in particular. He isn't a hunting dog or anything of that nature - just a growing lap dog who thinks he's part cat. I could be wrong with that though.

    I'm hoping he ends somewhere in the 80lb range. Nothing like a big lap dog to keep you warm! LOL
    There are tons of articles on the benefits of waiting to neuter. Looks and size have very little to do with it! The muscle they retain from waiting isn't "extra" it is normal. Because we think of neutered dogs as the norm, people, even vets, say that leaving a dog intact increases muscle. No! Neutering decreases the muscling they are supposed to have. Remember, neutering is unnatural and it takes away from what the dog should be. Removing hormone-producing organs has a profound effect on the body, especially during the growth phase. From Whole Dog Journal: "In 2005, Dr. Zink first published an article, “Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete,” which lists studies that highlight the risks of early spay/neuter. One orthopedic issue she mentions (and one that I have seen time and again) is the elongated “look” that results from prematurely shutting off the sex hormones that govern the closing of the growth plates. These longer, lighter limbs, and narrow chests and skulls aren’t just a cosmetic concern: A 2002 study published in Cancer Epidemiology, Biomarkers & Prevention showed that this lengthening of the long bones creates a significantly higher risk of osteosarcoma, or bone cancer, in dogs altered at younger than one year." I would urge you to read this article as well as others you find online via actual studies conducted on the matter.

    I neutered both of my current boys at two years of age, give or take a month. I would not recommend neutering before 18 months. If I wasn't living in an urban environment, wasn't social with my dogs or didn't do competitive dog sports, I may not have neutered at all. However, I would change my tune when it comes to dogs in shelters, dogs with genetic diseases or dog owners who cannot seem to be able to contain their pets or who even mention breeding one of their dogs. There are special considerations. If someone feels they MUST take their dog to doggie daycare (though more and more doggie daycare owners are beginning to take intact MALES on a case by case basis) or dog parks, they may want to neuter earlier while still waiting as long as possible. I'm not a dog park person but never had an issue at the type of places where you keep on moving versus standing static (i.e., hiking, off-leash trails, beaches). I would also tell a person who is going to wait and has a male dog to really try to work with the dog on sniffing and leg lifting early on and not wait until it becomes a problem. One of my dogs never once lifted his leg and I swear he was asexual! The other one started the sniffing and leg lifting (never inside) when he was nine months. It wasn't a problem because I never let it become one, but it did annoy me. He also felt more stress during classes when there were intact females as he really wanted to be good but was distracted. As I said, both were neutered at two years old. The one I like to call asexual didn't change a bit but the other one did. He stopped all unneutered male dog behaviors within eight weeks with some stopping in two days and his attitude in class is more focused and much happier. Neither of my dogs ever humped (though most of my friends with spayed females are serial humpers and have spent much time chasing my dogs around and humping them -- go figure!).

    Anyway, I would not worry about your dog's size and I would definitely NOT neuter a dog early to keep him within a certain weight. The weight aspect of neutering versus not neutering is extremely minimal and, frankly, unimportant.

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  8. #16
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    ^^^^^^^
    This x 100
    How refreshing to read so much common sense - from perusing forums I was beginning to think people thought dogs were born with detachable bits that could be removed to suit!! Not that I cannot see a reason for neutering in cases of irresponsible mass over production - oh wait, that would be humans!!

  9. #17
    Real Retriever PinkDragon14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    There are tons of articles on the benefits of waiting to neuter. Looks and size have very little to do with it! The muscle they retain from waiting isn't "extra" it is normal. Because we think of neutered dogs as the norm, people, even vets, say that leaving a dog intact increases muscle. No! Neutering decreases the muscling they are supposed to have. Remember, neutering is unnatural and it takes away from what the dog should be. Removing hormone-producing organs has a profound effect on the body, especially during the growth phase. From Whole Dog Journal: "In 2005, Dr. Zink first published an article, “Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete,” which lists studies that highlight the risks of early spay/neuter. One orthopedic issue she mentions (and one that I have seen time and again) is the elongated “look” that results from prematurely shutting off the sex hormones that govern the closing of the growth plates. These longer, lighter limbs, and narrow chests and skulls aren’t just a cosmetic concern: A 2002 study published in Cancer Epidemiology, Biomarkers & Prevention showed that this lengthening of the long bones creates a significantly higher risk of osteosarcoma, or bone cancer, in dogs altered at younger than one year." I would urge you to read this article as well as others you find online via actual studies conducted on the matter.

    I neutered both of my current boys at two years of age, give or take a month. I would not recommend neutering before 18 months. If I wasn't living in an urban environment, wasn't social with my dogs or didn't do competitive dog sports, I may not have neutered at all. However, I would change my tune when it comes to dogs in shelters, dogs with genetic diseases or dog owners who cannot seem to be able to contain their pets or who even mention breeding one of their dogs. There are special considerations. If someone feels they MUST take their dog to doggie daycare (though more and more doggie daycare owners are beginning to take intact MALES on a case by case basis) or dog parks, they may want to neuter earlier while still waiting as long as possible. I'm not a dog park person but never had an issue at the type of places where you keep on moving versus standing static (i.e., hiking, off-leash trails, beaches). I would also tell a person who is going to wait and has a male dog to really try to work with the dog on sniffing and leg lifting early on and not wait until it becomes a problem. One of my dogs never once lifted his leg and I swear he was asexual! The other one started the sniffing and leg lifting (never inside) when he was nine months. It wasn't a problem because I never let it become one, but it did annoy me. He also felt more stress during classes when there were intact females as he really wanted to be good but was distracted. As I said, both were neutered at two years old. The one I like to call asexual didn't change a bit but the other one did. He stopped all unneutered male dog behaviors within eight weeks with some stopping in two days and his attitude in class is more focused and much happier. Neither of my dogs ever humped (though most of my friends with spayed females are serial humpers and have spent much time chasing my dogs around and humping them -- go figure!).

    Anyway, I would not worry about your dog's size and I would definitely NOT neuter a dog early to keep him within a certain weight. The weight aspect of neutering versus not neutering is extremely minimal and, frankly, unimportant.
    I'm not sure what the future will bring (day care/housing/etc). We're looking to relocate in the next year to a different state, so he may spend a few days here and there in a pet hotel/day care setting. I doubt being intact will make a difference, but I guess that's one of those bridges that you cross when you get there! I just don't want to harm him in any way or hurt his development. He isn't off leash when we walk (and will never be - no matter how trained he is, I will never trust him off leash. you never know when they'll take off and flip you the paw as they run), so I'm not worried about him running up to another dog and...well...you know. We also don't do dog parks for many reasons (dirty, risks of illness, etc.). He is starting to hump but I'm trying to control that when he starts. Usually he does it to me and me only (), so I just tell him "NO" and gently push him away. I don't really mind what weight he ends up being - I'd rather him be on the bigger side (healthy and with the right development, of course) than small and having risks of ACL problems as Annette mentioned.

    We also don't have any other dogs near us, so that isn't an issue either. I'd like to get another dog in the future (as in, 8-10yrs out - Murph is already a handful!), but I mean by that age, he'll definitely be neutered and uninterested with doing anything (at least I think that would be the case).

    Thank you for your informative post. I'll check out the link that you mentioned as well
    ~Alyssa
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