Puppy new to RAW, growling up a storm....

[NC104]

My 2 year old and my 7 year old Lab are both on a raw diet.

I adopted a puppy from a rescue who we suspect is lab/pit, and tonight was her first raw meal. I gave her a chicken quarter cause I remember their stomach adapts to chicken easiest.

She was in her crate eating with the door closed in the dinning room and my two were in the kitchen, about 15 feet away, and immediately when she saw them she started growling and snarling and her hackles went up. Scared the crap out of me!! She also did it to me whenever I walked by....its like she was instantly vicious when I gave her, her meal.

When I put my dogs on raw, I didnt have this problem. I still dont....

My friend owns pit bulls and she told me 'I wouldnt feed her raw if I was you'
And after tonight, I am rethinking it....

What should I do?

[Linsey]

The diet does not make the dog. In some cases of aggression, yes, lower protein foods are recommended, but the raw diet IS actually lower protein than premium kibble.

How much training has she had? Was she ever food agressive before or a resource guarder at all?

By all means, discontinue the diet if she is scaring you, but I kind of doubt that's why.

[NC104]

She is not even 5 months old. She is a perfect angel, we practice NILIF and no, she has never been food aggressive. I have zero problems with her otherwise. Anything I ask of her, she does.

She was on kibble for a month, and she could careless if anyone was near her. No resoruce guarding, no food aggression.

If I feed her kibble and she gobbles it down and doesn't say anything, and then I feed her RAW chicken and she is eating it and growling, obviously the raw diet is of higher value to her.

Ive had her 6 weeks and hadnt heard a growl til now.

[bett]

she may really value the raw much more than the kibble but she shouldnt be allowed to continue. perhaps, before you give her the food, she should be made to sit and wait, and then , while she's eating-can you take the bowl away (bravely) and if she growls give her a stern correction?

[NC104]

She already does sit and wait, and she will eat from my hand, when she picked up the chicken I picked the bowl up and shut the door and she laid down with it....I dont think its me that makes her growl, its my dogs, there are a room away but she sees them walking back and forth watching her eat.

[klcabe]

It's a high value item for her right now. She doesn't want ANYONE to take it away from her. Just like some dogs that don't have a problem with kibble, but give them a Kong with peanut butter in it, or a rawhide and they guard it with their life.

It has nothing to do with the fact that it's raw meat.

Perhaps being in the crate has something to do with it as well. In the crate, she has no way of 'escaping,' so she wants to make it well known that no one better even try to get close - kind of like chained dogs.

[NC104]

Should I not feed her in the crate or cover it?

[klcabe]

Originally Posted by NC104

Should I not feed her in the crate or cover it?

I wouldn't cover the crate. I'd probably give her the option of eating in the crate or not, by simply leaving the door open and making sure your other dogs cannot get into the dining room. Then, she can choose where she feels 'safest' eating, and that should help with the growling at the other dogs.

Personally, I don't care if my dogs growl if another dog gets too close to them while they're eating, as long as they don't do it to me or any other person. I've got a dog that will stiffen up and growl if one of my other dogs gets too close to her while she's eating, but I can walk right up and stick my hand in her bowl and she doesn't even bat an eye.

I've never been a proponent of taking away a dog's food just to show that you can, or to teach your dog that he should let you. Why should your dog trust you if you routinely take away his food while he's eating it? That just doesn't make sense.

I've always required that my dogs (and all the rescue dogs learn this right off the bat as well) sit and stay there until I put their bowl down and give them the okay to get up and begin eating. Then, I walk away and leave them the heck alone until they're finished. They know that the food was mine and I gave them permission to have it, and they also know that once that permission is granted, I'm not going to come and take it away from them, so I can walk by while they're eating, pet them, stick my hand in their bowl, call them away from it, whatever. They have no reason to guard it from me.

If I have a dog that growls when another dog gets too close while it's eating, I do not correct the growly dog. Instead, I reinforce their warning by making sure the other dog backs off and leaves the growly dog alone while it's eating. This further builds trust in me, and the fact that no one is going to steal another one's food.


Now, if your puppy starts growling at YOU, then you are going to have to take another approach to meal time.

[bett]

oh i misunderstood and thought she growled at you too.i dont think taking away a dog's food (one who growls re food) is to show "that you can" but rather to show that you will give it back, for proper manners and that that behavior is not permitted.true that the dog who is growling is giving a warning to the others to steer clear, but if they're not approaching the food dish, no need to warn, in my opinion..

[LauraNJ]

Bett, I agree.

When I was breeding, I used to pick the puppy pan up regularly. For me, we've always had little kids underfoot and although the kids are taught to leave the dogs alone when they eat, a 2 yr old toddler is not necessarily always going to follow the rules. Same thing with a neighbor's kid. I do not want any mishap or anyone being accidently bitten by a dog being overly possessive over any food or treat.

When I pick up a bowl, the dog gets rewarded with a high value treat, yummier than the dog food. So, for my dogs, I think they look forward to the bowl coming up every now and then, they know they'll get it back, after their treat. I also have never allowed the dogs to growl at one another in the house, I just don't want that sort of thing to escalate and again possibly a child ends up in the middle.

It is all about what you find acceptable or not acceptable in your house. There is no one right way, it is what works for you with your dogs.

[NC104]

Say I dont feel its acceptable, what do I do?

She lets me pick up the pan. I don't want to poke or yell in a dogs face when they are already growling, snarling, that isnt very wise.

I dont see what options I have. Should I cut up her meals and feed from my hands?

Do your dogs eat raw? I dont think I can expect to be able to remove a chicken quarter from my dogs mouth, only to give it back. IMO, raw is different then picking up a bowl full of kibble...she already lets me do that.

Dogs dont eat a chicken quarter from a bowl. They pick it up and chew it/tear it. What yummier then raw meaty bone?

[LauraNJ]

No, I don't feed raw, I have a good friend, a Newfie breeder, who has fed Raw since the 80s, before it was popular in the least. Their dogs will drop what is in their mouth on command.

Kibble is different than raw but not so different than a dog who guards a bone or some other high value food or object.

If you don't want her doing that, I would search "claiming food". Battmain has excellent advise for dealing with food guarding behavior. Perhaps write a pm to Battmain and ask for their opinion on dealing with claiming since it is already in the dog's mouth and you are right, you can't exactly reach in and yank it out.

[ceridwen]

Originally Posted by NC104

Say I dont feel its acceptable, what do I do?

She lets me pick up the pan. I don't want to poke or yell in a dogs face when they are already growling, snarling, that isnt very wise.

I dont see what options I have. Should I cut up her meals and feed from my hands?

Do your dogs eat raw? I dont think I can expect to be able to remove a chicken quarter from my dogs mouth, only to give it back. IMO, raw is different then picking up a bowl full of kibble...she already lets me do that.

Dogs dont eat a chicken quarter from a bowl. They pick it up and chew it/tear it.

She's growling for two reasons: 1) the raw food is novel and 2) it's very tasty and therefore high value.

Right now she has no idea she'll ever get it again, all she knows is that she wants this very yummy stuff for herself.

I'd do the transition to raw slowly, starting by cutting all the meat off the chicken quarters and into cubes. Hand feed her the cubes and then give her to bones to work on. They should be lower value now that they don't have all the meat on them. If they are large enough that it takes her a bit to finish them, play a game with her where you trade her for different bones from the chicken quarters.

You can play the same trading game with her for marrow bones as well. This is what I've been doing with Kara and it has helped a lot. Pretty much yes, I do expect her to give me the raw bone right out of her mouth. I'd expect the same for a chicken quarter, or a dead squirrel (). It takes a while to work up to that point though. What you are teaching her is that having something taken away (even something very high value) does not mean she no longer gets any of it. Therefore having it taken away is not a threat.

ETA: I don't feed raw, but do give it as treats for teeth (usually marrow bones) and have had similar issues with Kara when I do.

[NC104]

Wow. That makes alot of sense! I fed her chicken and some gizzards tonight and I sat in front of her crate with her door open and fed her from my hand and she was good. She sat and waited for me to hand her stuff. I let her lick my fingers so she can get used to eating and my fingers being in her mouth.

The taking the meat off the bone sounds like a great idea.

Is there anything I can do to get her calmer as far as my other dogs? They dont go in the same room as her crate and she growls when she sees them, maybe cause she knows she is tiny and she figures they could get it off her if she wanted?

Should I feed them from my hand in front of eachother, or is that asking for world war3? lol

Thank you by the way!

[ceridwen]

Originally Posted by NC104

Wow. That makes alot of sense! I fed her chicken and some gizzards tonight and I sat in front of her crate with her door open and fed her from my hand and she was good. She sat and waited for me to hand her stuff. I let her lick my fingers so she can get used to eating and my fingers being in her mouth.

The taking the meat off the bone sounds like a great idea.

Is there anything I can do to get her calmer as far as my other dogs? They dont go in the same room as her crate and she growls when she sees them, maybe cause she knows she is tiny and she figures they could get it off her if she wanted?

Should I feed them from my hand in front of eachother, or is that asking for world war3? lol

Thank you by the way!

I'd slowly move toward them being in the same room when they eat. Wait until a bit of the newness of the raw diet has worn off and you've got her trading bones with you freely though.

I'd have the first step be to have them visible on the other side of a baby gate while she eats, so she can see them but they can't get in and crowd you. Then move to having them in a sit/stay or down/stay nearby while you feed. Then to allowing them to be moving nearby while you feed her. Don't try to push things too fast. Give it a week at each new step before you move on.

Once she's doing well you could also try using little pieces of raw food as treats and do simple stuff where you have all the dogs do it at the same time (sit, down, etc) and then reward. Start with something low value in these instances (kibble), then move to little bits of raw. So she gets used to eating raw meat in a situation where the other dogs are nearby but there is no risk of them taking it from her (since the pieces are too small to need to guard).

I'd suspect once you do a bit more training she'll get over it and relax about the food. If things look to be moving in the opposite direction though, I'd get a trainer in to help you.