New puppy food diet.

[Tanya]

Did you even read the original post?
He was asking for a food recommendation,
Taking two hundred woods to say "ask you breeder" isn't much help.

honestly this is like when I ask about supplements (specifically joint supplements) you end up with a VERY LONG list of choices which is more or less helpful. And I totally agree with the above, the question was answered as best we could.

The OP made five posts in two days and didn't come back - that happens with new posters. He came asking for breeder recommendation so didn't yet have a puppy (but does have another adult lab).

[Berna]

I don't think that the advice to feed what the breeder is feeding has anything to do with the breeder's lines. It has to do with what the puppy is already used to eating since we know that food changes may lead to GI upset. And no one wants to baffle new pet owners. It can't be that only one food (the one that the breeder feeds) agrees with the puppy. And it can't be that none of the more expensive foods (like Orijen or Acana) agrees with any puppy. I guess the price of these foods is the reason no breeder feeds them. Also, I see that most breeders in the US feed ProPlan, while in Europe it's Royal Canin (which, from what I've noticed here during the years on the board, you guys in the US consider "trash" food; In Europe it's considered "top"). Moreover, here in Europe we are advised to feed puppy foods as listed by the kibble manufacturer, while I see breeders on this forum recommend switching to adult foods earlier. It works for you, great. It works for European breeders too - they also raise healthy dogs.

We can discuss "complete" foods all we want, there is no such thing as a "complete" food. You may have noticed that different food brands list different ingredients, different amounts of vitamins, proteins, fat, etc. So don't get fooled. "Complete pet food" is a marketing trick. There is no consensus on what "complete" is, and we have no idea what could be a "complete" food. Pet food manufacturers just have to meet the minimum criteria required.

So in general, if you don't know much about pet nutrition, if you are a newbie dog owner, stick with your breeder's recommendation. If you are not, do what has worked for you during the past years, especially if you are not comfortable with what the breeder was feeding. Personally, I'd never be comfortable with ProPlan. I prefer to feed real, homemade food, with ingredients that I select and prepare. It has worked for me and my dog way better than any kibble he was on during the first 6 years.

[Bernie]

"There are well-known Labrador breeder/exhibitors who are also veterinarians with extremely successful breeding/show programs. They would be the first to tell you that the average veterinarian (and they are licensed vets, so have been through vet school, and do continuing education) catering to the general pet population, is NOT a specialist in canine nutrition generally, or Labrador nutrition specifically. Puppy buyers shirking breeder advice about feeding, age appropriate exercise, training, and a multitude of other issues, then having problems with their puppies/dogs is something that is discussed regularly when breeders/exhibitors get together."

Who said to not ask the breeder about food?
Not me.
The breeder is a source, when seeking answers it's reasonable and responsible to use all sources of information.
When your breeder recommends a mediocre adult dog food for your new pup, you raise an eyebrow.
When his (untrained) veterinarian takes one look and says "I'd rather see him on a puppy food", you really begin to wonder.
When you find out the diet supplement recommended by the breeder involves kick-backs to said breeder, you get an attitude..
So excuse me if I choose not to use the mantra.

[dxboon]

I don't think that the advice to feed what the breeder is feeding has anything to do with the breeder's lines. It has to do with what the puppy is already used to eating since we know that food changes may lead to GI upset. And no one wants to baffle new pet owners. It can't be that only one food (the one that the breeder feeds) agrees with the puppy. And it can't be that none of the more expensive foods (like Orijen or Acana) agrees with any puppy. I guess the price of these foods is the reason no breeder feeds them. Also, I see that most breeders in the US feed ProPlan, while in Europe it's Royal Canin (which, from what I've noticed here during the years on the board, you guys in the US consider "trash" food; In Europe it's considered "top"). Moreover, here in Europe we are advised to feed puppy foods as listed by the kibble manufacturer, while I see breeders on this forum recommend switching to adult foods earlier. It works for you, great. It works for European breeders too - they also raise healthy dogs.

We can discuss "complete" foods all we want, there is no such thing as a "complete" food. You may have noticed that different food brands list different ingredients, different amounts of vitamins, proteins, fat, etc. So don't get fooled. "Complete pet food" is a marketing trick. There is no consensus on what "complete" is, and we have no idea what could be a "complete" food. Pet food manufacturers just have to meet the minimum criteria required.

So in general, if you don't know much about pet nutrition, if you are a newbie dog owner, stick with your breeder's recommendation. If you are not, do what has worked for you during the past years, especially if you are not comfortable with what the breeder was feeding. Personally, I'd never be comfortable with ProPlan. I prefer to feed real, homemade food, with ingredients that I select and prepare. It has worked for me and my dog way better than any kibble he was on during the first 6 years.

I think it is very possible that if a breeding program has only fed one food to their breeding stock for decades, there is the possibility that the dogs produced from those lines do best on those foods. Is it the only thing they could eat? Of course not, but there is likely a reason that the breeder is maintaining their program on those foods. There are indeed breeders who feed Acana/Orijen, and there are also breeders who feed raw and will only place puppies with families that agree to only feed raw over a dog's life (one well-known US breeder/judge comes to mind right away). I think buying a puppy goes back to doing research on your breeder. It's not just about finding a reputable breeder, but one who is philosophically in sync with you.

[windycanyon]

First off let me say I am not anti- dog breeder, the ones I've met appear to be sincere and caring people, but apparently the opposite is not always true.
Any questions on this thread are met with the same mantra " trust your breeder" or "do what your breeder says".
Slightly bias don't you think?
Veterinarians don't know anything about dog food! Eight yrs. of college and a practice seeing dogs at all stages of life gives them no insight here?
Some vets like Rocco's, have a nutritionist on staff that will analyze and give you a written report on any dog food or supplement you request.
I have left here by name the food recommended by my breeder for puppies, thinking some would google it and see what they think,
Nope, same mantra though.
I left the name of a supplement recommended by my breeder, again thinking I'd get an opinion,
Nope, same mantra though.
I hope the OP found some useful info..

Hey Bernie,
When you or anyone's vet wants to start honoring breeders' guarantees for joint health, that's when I'll change my answer to that question. That hasn't happened yet though.
In the meantime, just suffice to say that generations of OFA clearances give a few of us the confidence that we are doing what is best for our lines.
Btw, that's a very good way to screen for reputable breeders and hopefully healthy breeding programs-- on OFA you can verify all the parents', grandparents', greats' and even offspring and half sibs and look at vertical pedigrees.
Anne

[Bernie]

I think the idea is encouraging people to pick a great, responsible breeder. If your breeder doesn't know his/her lines well enough to pick a food that works, you may want to think about what other issues there are.

Bottom line, if you've picked a breeder worth their salt, you've picked a breeder whose food choice you can trust.

Though I agree completely on the importance of selecting a breeder, the OP indicated he had already purchased a pup and was asking for opinions on food, little too late to be lecturing on choosing a breeder.

[windycanyon]

I think it is very possible that if a breeding program has only fed one food to their breeding stock for decades, there is the possibility that the dogs produced from those lines do best on those foods. Is it the only thing they could eat? Of course not, but there is likely a reason that the breeder is maintaining their program on those foods. There are indeed breeders who feed Acana/Orijen, and there are also breeders who feed raw and will only place puppies with families that agree to only feed raw over a dog's life (one well-known US breeder/judge comes to mind right away). I think buying a puppy goes back to doing research on your breeder. It's not just about finding a reputable breeder, but one who is philosophically in sync with you.

I touched on this subject just recently myself. One breeder/ judge who recently passed away told me she felt diet had become an epigenetic thing in lines. She personally fed Puppy Chow to her litters w/ great success for 30+ yrs (I forget how many now). I know of Borzoi breeders who feed Ole Roy or Puppy Chow to their growing puppies and have run into numerous growth issues if they fed a "better" food. Some foods have too MUCH nutrition for some lines. I saw that personally when I tried Canidae ALS w/ a litter years ago... had the onset of some ugly knuckling which corrected as soon as I changed to a lower Ca food. My warranty is null and void if people want to feed raw (unless it's an analyzed / approved raw diet)... because the Ca is too high in most raw diets for my growing puppies. Most of us do not do that to be difficult, we do it because we care about our puppies that much.

[dxboon]

Though I agree completely on the importance of selecting a breeder, the OP indicated he had already purchased a pup and was asking for opinions on food, little too late to be lecturing on choosing a breeder.

He had not purchased a puppy yet (at time of thread origin). He asked for recommendations of breeders. He wants to purchase a puppy soon.

[Berna]

I think it is very possible that if a breeding program has only fed one food to their breeding stock for decades, there is the possibility that the dogs produced from those lines do best on those foods. Is it the only thing they could eat? Of course not, but there is likely a reason that the breeder is maintaining their program on those foods. There are indeed breeders who feed Acana/Orijen, and there are also breeders who feed raw and will only place puppies with families that agree to only feed raw over a dog's life (one well-known US breeder/judge comes to mind right away). I think buying a puppy goes back to doing research on your breeder. It's not just about finding a reputable breeder, but one who is philosophically in sync with you.

Well, maybe we should agree to disagree, since there is no scientific evidence that feeding one food for decades changes the lines. I do believe that it is a personal preference / philosophy of the breeder (like the one you wrote about breeders who feed raw and would place their puppies to raw feeding homes only).

[dxboon]

I touched on this subject just recently myself. One breeder/ judge who recently passed away told me she felt diet had become an epigenetic thing in lines. She personally fed Puppy Chow to her litters w/ great success for 30+ yrs (I forget how many now). I know of Borzoi breeders who feed Ole Roy or Puppy Chow to their growing puppies and have run into numerous growth issues if they fed a "better" food. Some foods have too MUCH nutrition for some lines. I saw that personally when I tried Canidae ALS w/ a litter years ago... had the onset of some ugly knuckling which corrected as soon as I changed to a lower Ca food. My warranty is null and void if people want to feed raw (unless it's an analyzed / approved raw diet)... because the Ca is too high in most raw diets for my growing puppies. Most of us do not do that to be difficult, we do it because we care about our puppies that much.

Epigenetics is an interesting area of research. The dog food brand Wysong has a whole spiel about epigenetics in relation to their food. I think if people spent more time researching breeders, getting to know them, asking about their philosophies in important areas of husbandry and then seeing if those practices matched their own, there'd be less sturm und drang in general. Hope the OP matches up with a good breeder. He's been given leads on nice puppies.