Obstinate puppy!! Is he becoming a teenager?

[xracer4844]

If I was to judge you I would have said I find it disgusting to use fear and intimidation to get a dog to be a well-trained, obedient dog and that anyone that does is an a***hole....but I didn't. You called yourself the a***hole.

Again, to be quite specific about the word "positive" which you have misinterpreted in the context of behaviorism. Positive means you are adding a behavior, and when used with reinforcement as in "positive reinforcement" its a rewarding behavior initially but it can be anything.

So why use fear and intimidation when you can blink your eyes, pick your nose, cough or stand on your head to get a dog to perform a task?

Can you tell me how you correct for being disobedient in the example you used? (again though, this language indicates a persistence in thinking dogs are humans and usually if a dog is not doing what you have asked then you haven't taught it, your problem not the dogs).

No where do I say that I use fear and intimidation to train. To be very specific all of the dogs on the team wear DEVAL slip chains. They are very fine chains ( Known to be the most sought after chain by professional trainers) used primarily in the show ring, obedience and rally competitions etc. They are basically the "elite" slip chain. The reason we use them is because they are not a "choke" collar. They provide a bite and release immediately. The reason we use devals is because they provide a "bite" like a nip, we use our voice (ah-ah) as a growl. All of the dogs have a leather pull tab (about 2 inches) attached to the deval. This way in the home, or off leash a correction can be given on the collar. The pull tab is big enough to fit 1 or 2 fingers in the loop to pull on. Everyone on the team (20 dogs) use this exact set up. They wear them for shows, they wear them when the compete etc. Anyone that takes classes is taught with this system as well.

I am so lucky that I get to compete and get to work with some of the best trainers and dogs in the country. We have all trained with the same person. All of the guide dogs our trainer trains have been trained the same way. All of the movie dogs get trained the same way. All of the dogs that compete in rally get trained the same way. All of her students get trained the same way. She has taught me the same way.

[charliebbarkin]

No where do I say that I use fear and intimidation to train. To be very specific all of the dogs on the team wear DEVAL slip chains. They are very fine chains ( Known to be the most sought after chain by professional trainers) used primarily in the show ring, obedience and rally competitions etc. They are basically the "elite" slip chain. The reason we use them is because they are not a "choke" collar. They provide a bite and release immediately. The reason we use devals is because they provide a "bite" like a nip, we use our voice (ah-ah) as a growl. All of the dogs have a leather pull tab (about 2 inches) attached to the deval. This way in the home, or off leash a correction can be given on the collar. The pull tab is big enough to fit 1 or 2 fingers in the loop to pull on. Everyone on the team (20 dogs) use this exact set up. They wear them for shows, they wear them when the compete etc. Anyone that takes classes is taught with this system as well.

I am so lucky that I get to compete and get to work with some of the best trainers and dogs in the country. We have all trained with the same person. All of the guide dogs our trainer trains have been trained the same way. All of the movie dogs get trained the same way. All of the dogs that compete in rally get trained the same way. All of her students get trained the same way. She has taught me the same way.

Okay. This is a 4 month old puppy. It's okay to reward with treats. It's okay to be lenient and forgiving and patient. I think we can allow them that for all the numbers of times they are patient with us. This puppy shouldn't even be on a pinch or choke chain yet. Just a flat buckle collar or maybe a harness if he is a puller. You aren't making pops of the collar yet, you are encouraging your puppy.

Sure. I've seen a lot of obedient dogs that are overweight. I know you get where I'm going there. But the type of training you describe is not meant for puppies. Yes if at 6 months my dog decided not to sit when he learned the behavior at 8 weeks, sure I would probably wait a second for him to make the right call, if he doesn't I will pop the pinch collar and when he does it I will tell him how great he is or just say thank you. No treat, verbal reward. But like Tanya said, he's already learned this behavior and I know he knows it. This puppy needs to fool proof and polish the recall. Most puppies do not have this perfected at 4 months. Most likely, a puppy will come when called because they aren't as distracted by how awesome the world is around them. As a puppy I might do a verbal command, if no response then a hand command and then just wait it out. Maybe step into him to trigger the response.

I think people are saying your methods are too extreme for a pup who is just learning the basics. And you are a bit abrasive in your delivery.

I taught my puppy his recall as described above and with treats and after all his shots he was going off leash to some of the busiest tourist places in CA, happily sprinting his way back to me when I called him. I've never had a problem with his recall and I only use treats if I'm training and I feel it is deserved.

Just let it go. We get it you're awesome. Congrats.

Oh and I trained with one of the best in my country. Also recognized internationally. But I really don't think anyone here cares to be honest.

[Moby and Barley's Mom]

Oh my goodness! I am so overwhelmed by all these responses! I think they may have struck a cord!

Thank you for all of your responses - I am trying to digest them all now.

Let me be clearer - Barley will come immediately when he is outside in our large multi-level yard if I can or cannot see him. He will also come when I call him at the dog park.

He will not always come when he is comfortable and sleeping and I need him to go out and go potty before I go to bed. He will also not come reliably when I have let him out at 2 a.m. to go to the bathroom and decides he wants to check in the kitchen to see if something miraculously fell on the floor during the night. (I suppose it would be possible considering earthquakes and such!) I will be honest - I am not going to put him on a lead and do some training at 2 a.m. when I am stumbling about. I just want him to comply. It is mainly then that he looks at me obstinately. In this situation - do I pick him up and take him to potty, bed, or wherever, or what?

It is also very difficult for him to come to me during training when his favorite friend, Buddy, a 4 month old chocolate lab is there and constantly wanting to play. (I sort of understand that - when I call to him it is sooooo hard for him to stop playing.) We will work more on that in class - and Buddy's owner and I are planning dog play dates.
I really do appreciate everyone's feedback!

[Sue]

He will not always come when he is comfortable and sleeping and I need him to go out and go potty before I go to bed. He will also not come reliably when I have let him out at 2 a.m. to go to the bathroom and decides he wants to check in the kitchen to see if something miraculously fell on the floor during the night. (I suppose it would be possible considering earthquakes and such!) I will be honest - I am not going to put him on a lead and do some training at 2 a.m. when I am stumbling about. I just want him to comply. It is mainly then that he looks at me obstinately. In this situation - do I pick him up and take him to potty, bed, or wherever, or what?

I'm answering the part in bold.
No. You do not want to do any training at 2:00 am. For a middle of the night potty trip, hark back to when he was just a wee guy, and would go out, potty, and you would carry him back in, and (hopefully) put him in his crate. This is what you need to do, minus the carrying. You DO need to put him on a leash or some other kind of lead for the middle of the night trip, which serves a dual purpose. One, you can see he actually went, and two, you can reel him in and take him back to his bed with no play, no interaction, no stopping in the kitchen for a treat. Hopefully, it won't last long enough to go into the colder months, but you're in Cali, so it shouldn't matter much.

Forgot to add: He is not looking at you obstinately. Dogs don't have the same emotions that a human would. Please don't assign these to him. He's a dog, not a human. And too, he doesn't get revenge on you, and if he does something you consider bad, he's NOT showing guilt when he cowers, hides, etc. He's reacting to your body language.

It is also very difficult for him to come to me during training when his favorite friend, Buddy, a 4 month old chocolate lab is there and constantly wanting to play. (I sort of understand that - when I call to him it is sooooo hard for him to stop playing.) We will work more on that in class - and Buddy's owner and I are planning dog play dates.
I really do appreciate everyone's feedback!

Don't call only when it's time to stop playing. That teaches him that when mom calls, the fun ends. Call, and give a treat, a pet, a toy, or what have you, then release him to go back to playing. He will need distraction training, but not for this. That's what classes are for. Playtime is playtime. You make it a teaching moment by what I said above: Call, treat or praise, send back for more play. Oh and don't call if you think there is a chance he won't come. If he doesn't, then you are "poisoning" the call word.

[Tanya]

complete agree. if you KNOW the dog will blow you off please don't use the recall word. go get him. practice when you have time. So if for last call he doesn't get up, go wake him up.

if at 2am you know he doesn't want to come in, put a leash on him. you can let him drag it but don't call him back in, go get him. Or take him out on leash.

Agree with all the above. Remember to use the recall word more often for GOOD FUN THINGS. not only to end things or crate him. it may be working now but it can backfire as he becomes older.

At the dog park randomly call him, reward and SEND HIM BACK TO PLAY. practice now while he's still good. reward can just be praise and a cuddle if he likes cuddles (if not, don't bother) the reward is really SENDING BACK TO PLAY. real life reward.

During the long training phase you need to pick and chose when you will use your recall command and when you need to go get the dog. the more you practice using it in situations you know odds are good he won't listen, the less value the word holds and he learns it's optional.

[Labradorks]

I'm answering the part in bold.
No. You do not want to do any training at 2:00 am. For a middle of the night potty trip, hark back to when he was just a wee guy, and would go out, potty, and you would carry him back in, and (hopefully) put him in his crate. This is what you need to do, minus the carrying. You DO need to put him on a leash or some other kind of lead for the middle of the night trip, which serves a dual purpose. One, you can see he actually went, and two, you can reel him in and take him back to his bed with no play, no interaction, no stopping in the kitchen for a treat. Hopefully, it won't last long enough to go into the colder months, but you're in Cali, so it shouldn't matter much.

Forgot to add: He is not looking at you obstinately. Dogs don't have the same emotions that a human would. Please don't assign these to him. He's a dog, not a human. And too, he doesn't get revenge on you, and if he does something you consider bad, he's NOT showing guilt when he cowers, hides, etc. He's reacting to your body language.



Don't call only when it's time to stop playing. That teaches him that when mom calls, the fun ends. Call, and give a treat, a pet, a toy, or what have you, then release him to go back to playing. He will need distraction training, but not for this. That's what classes are for. Playtime is playtime. You make it a teaching moment by what I said above: Call, treat or praise, send back for more play. Oh and don't call if you think there is a chance he won't come. If he doesn't, then you are "poisoning" the call word.

This.

In puppy class we worked on calling our dogs to us while playing mostly as a safety precaution. Walk up to the puppies and wiggle a treat in front of his nose -- literally inches -- and say "puppy, come!" in a nice, fun voice. Don't do this only when you NEED him to come, but randomly. When the puppy stops and takes even a half step toward you, give him the treat, praise, and release by saying something like "OK" or "free-dog" or whatever you use. Do that for the next year or two. Seriously, it's not an overnight thing and no dog is proofed before about a year of age, depending on the dog and how often you train.

Your expectations for a puppy of this age are quite high and you're kinda setting yourself, and your dog, up for failure.

[Lauranj]

It sounds like your pup is actually doing very well with recall. If you are going to practice recall with the other pup then both should be on long leads so you can reel yours in to you and quick step backwards so it builds up the motivation for a fast return to you. Lots of praise.

[Lauranj]

This.In puppy class we worked on calling our dogs to us while playing mostly as a safety precaution. Walk up to the puppies and wiggle a treat in front of his nose -- literally inches -- and say "puppy, come!" in a nice, fun voice. Don't do this only when you NEED him to come, but randomly. When the puppy stops and takes even a half step toward you, give him the treat, praise, and release by saying something like "OK" or "free-dog" or whatever you use. Do that for the next year or two. Seriously, it's not an overnight thing and no dog is proofed before about a year of age, depending on the dog and how often you train. Your expectations for a puppy of this age are quite high and you're kinda setting yourself, and your dog, up for failure.

The expectation is that a dog will not have a reliable recall for a year or two? So, no off lead on a hike or anywhere not fenced for a couple years? I think a tug or two on a long lead is better than having to lure a pup for recall for a year. That sounds like a confused pup if it doesn't know what come/here means after being worked with for 8 months or more. I am proofing pups before 6 months. I used to enter 6 month olds in competitive obedience. Puppies are very smart, they learn quickly and are enthusiastic. It is all in the expectations and how much time an owner devotes to training and working with their pup/dog.

[Lauranj]

If I was to judge you I would have said I find it disgusting to use fear and intimidation to get a dog to be a well-trained, obedient dog and that anyone that does is an a***hole....but I didn't. You called yourself the a***hole.Again, to be quite specific about the word "positive" which you have misinterpreted in the context of behaviorism. Positive means you are adding a behavior, and when used with reinforcement as in "positive reinforcement" its a rewarding behavior initially but it can be anything.So why use fear and intimidation when you can blink your eyes, pick your nose, cough or stand on your head to get a dog to perform a task?Can you tell me how you correct for being disobedient in the example you used? (again though, this language indicates a persistence in thinking dogs are humans and usually if a dog is not doing what you have asked then you haven't taught it, your problem not the dogs).

Wow, this is what this board has become? How sad. People used to be able to post various training methods, what worked for them, not just positive only, that is short sighted. I haven't missed this sort of juvenile behavior.

[charliebbarkin]

The expectation is that a dog will not have a reliable recall for a year or two? So, no off lead on a hike or anywhere not fenced for a couple years? I think a tug or two on a long lead is better than having to lure a pup for recall for a year. That sounds like a confused pup if it doesn't know what come/here means after being worked with for 8 months or more. I am proofing pups before 6 months. I used to enter 6 month olds in competitive obedience. Puppies are very smart, they learn quickly and are enthusiastic. It is all in the expectations and how much time an owner devotes to training and working with their pup/dog.

I have to agree with Laura about the age. Burton has been off leash in public since he has had all of his shots and he has a very reliable recall (I have never had him not come when called). Charlie took a little longer but he was off leash hiking by five months. Some dogs do take longer though.