Obstinate puppy!! Is he becoming a teenager?

[Georgie]

.... I don't disregard anything that georgie has written - I agree with everything that she said. I am fine with saying my post made me look like an asshole - and I did say it's unfair to judge me and the way that I train and the person I am based on the post. I wrote more posts in order to. hopefully, clarify that, and the conversation moved forward. I thought that the conversation brought up a lot of great points and people were really writing a lot and speaking from experience.

Nothing I write is my way or the highway - and once again I'll apologize for making it seem that way, as that was not my intention. Lets just leave it at that - I think that the conversation really developed and a lot of people wrote some fantastic things.

I think regardless of differences you brought up an excellent discussion and one that is causing waves around the world in academic research into canine studies and then naturally to dog training models. To be receptive to changes, advances and progress in how we train dogs is what it's about.

Dominance theory was used for over 100 years and is outdated by current evolutionary/biological science. It still lingers with some dog trainers but it is predicted and hoped that in the next 10-20 years it will have disappeared. It was based on the now disproven model that dogs behaved in a dominance-hierarchical model similar to wolves. Since then it has been found that dogs operate under a harmonious social model and that indeed wolves too operate under a harmonious social model except when human interferences occurs.


The association of animal behavioral professionals has this as their code:

We have an ethical obligation to provide effective and efficient interventions but also to respect the autonomy, dignity and moral rights of the subject and make our interventions as minimally intrusive/aversive as possible to achieve our reasonably determined behavioral goals.

They certainly don't use dominance model of training but the LIEB (the least intrusive effective behavior intervention). Dog trainers that are members must agree with their code.


I don't think you need to apologize for anything and I was never personally offended by anything you wrote.

[Archie]

Negativity aside, this has been a really interesting thread with some great discussion. Clearly, we are all passionate and knowledgable about our dogs.

i have really enjoyed it!

[ZoeysMommy]

Op, you have a 4 month old untrained puppy, young pups come to you initially based on fear of being alone, its a false sense of recall and means nothing. Your pup is now gaining confidence and independence, its time to properly train

Start with the basics, a long line, treats, toys, whatever gets your pup motivated. For my lab it was easy, she is a submissive, people pleaser, for my corgi, I used more aggressive training methods, she is hard headed and dominant. Choose the method that best works for your puppy. Recall training isn't something that happens overnight, it has to practiced everyday and consistently

Some training classes wouldnt be a bad idea either to help you train with distractions

[Woodrow_Woodchuck]

Op, you have a 4 month old untrained puppy, young pups come to you initially based on fear of being alone, its a false sense of recall and means nothing. Your pup is now gaining confidence and independence, its time to properly train

I'm kind of stuck on this one, maybe just on the border. I've only raised three black gals but do believe in using this to put the fear of losing me in them early. Even as pups they wander, but as soon as they realize I am not in sight, their first reaction is to go back to where they last saw me and start searching for me. True, it is not a recall, but can be used to train for one. After the initial fear of losing me has been put in them, if they start to wander, I'll give a recall. If no reaction I hide and wait. When you see the panic set in, call again as you KNOW they are l@@king for you now. Pop out and repeat the 'come' command and there is a HUGE praise party with hugs and scratches when they come!!! Then, while they are still excited about 'finding' you, suggest somewhere to go and something fun to do. "GOOD GIRL!" OHH!.. Let's go look for THIS TOY! Or go here, or wherever, but make it REALLY fun! Not only are you their whole world, but YOU know all the really fun things to do! From here you can do whatever suits your needs.

My pups have all been raised off leash in a country environment so someone with a limited area might have different techniques. They have all also been "field stock" labs, meaning HIGH energy, HIGH focus and HIGH drive. From day 1 we go wandering around. If they lose sight of me, it is short order before they come RUNNING to find me. As they get older, they will run ahead but keep stopping to look back and check on me. I can give whatever hand sign or call for a command. This way, even if they spot a 'target' I can let out a "YO!" and have them break, stop and look back at me.

I guess it all comes down to what your idea of a what a Labrador retriever should be. xracer trains one way, for competitive jobs. STRICT adherence to the rules is required. We are searching for this, or doing this job, like a service dog or agility. I train another way, for an obedient off leash companion. We go on outings off leash and I expect her to listen but she has lots of freedom to have fun. If she wants to take a stick swimming, or destroy a log, she can. The only thing I expect is if called, she will STOP whatever she is doing, look at me, and be ready for whatever I tell her to do. Others train for a family companion. They want a come, sit, stay, good leash walker. With the obligatory stupid dog tricks that are required to teach any lab, no matter what their "job" in life is!!! It is hard to tell sometimes if they are happy wearing the stupid reindeer antlers or if they are happy because we are laughing at them.

[Snowshoe]

Op, you have a 4 month old untrained puppy, young pups come to you initially based on fear of being alone, its a false sense of recall and means nothing. Your pup is now gaining confidence and independence, its time to properly train

I think I will comment on this too. Yes and no. The OP's pup is too old for this method, as evidenced by him feeling comfortable being away from his owner.

But this is a method that is used successfully when pups are very young. I started mine at 7 and 8 weeks old. What greater reward for a pup than to feel the relief of being safely back by Mum? Or Dad. No treats are needed but some praise, hugs, fun and some treats too can enhance the sensation that being by Mum is the BEST place to be. If the command COME is given while pup is already running to Mum then it's exactly the same as potty training. Assign a word to the action and praise to show it was the desired reaction. It's called Contiguity Training on Natural Behaviours. Another place you might use this kind of training is teaching your dog to bark on command or shake off water on command.

[ZoeysMommy]

Woodrow_Woodchuck, your post is great. That fear of being alone at 8 to16ish weeks is the best opportunity to start recall training, unfortunately most people do not see that window of opportunity and fool themselves into believing that proper recall is established.Then they are confused why at 4 to 5 months old, the puppy is no longer responding. You can get any young pup to come to you at 8 weeks and like i said it means nothing.

[WhoopsaDaisy]

Negativity aside, this has been a really interesting thread with some great discussion. Clearly, we are all passionate and knowledgable about our dogs.

i have really enjoyed it!

I completely agree. I was kind of hoping someone could make a sticky with some articles on current research in training philosophy...I'm familiar with a lot of the topics from classes years ago on Education Philosophy and I've read a few things hear and there...but I'd like to do some real reading on the topic. This thread has peaked my interest. Does anyone have links to articles they've collected on the lastest research in training philosphy that we could post on the board?

[SoapySophie]

Question about the long lead...we got a 30' one with the intention of using it for sit stays, but I see above that it can be used also for "come" commands. My question is for when the dog doesn't come. What do you do with the length of leash in between you? Reel the dog to you or..?

Sorry I sound like a dummy. lol

[Snowshoe]

Question about the long lead...we got a 30' one with the intention of using it for sit stays, but I see above that it can be used also for "come" commands. My question is for when the dog doesn't come. What do you do with the length of leash in between you? Reel the dog to you or..?

Sorry I sound like a dummy. lol

I was taught to be very careful how I lay the long line out so it doesn't snag while puppy is coming. Hopefully puppy comes so quickly you won't have time to reel the line in so it'll just have to fold back on itself. Of course it's there so if you do need to give a few tugs you can. Don't start at the full length of it.

Actually, the line didn't work for us. I used the fear method at first and had fabulous recall till 18 months. Then I used North/South fetching to get our fabulous recall back. The fear method I mentionned in post #65 did Jet for her whole life though.

ETA: Watch your own feet too, around your laid out rope. Not only might it give puppy an unpleasant jerk, it can do serious damage to your own ankles. A friend borrowed my line and got a very, very bad rope burn from my dirty, wet, fithy, swamp water soaked rope and her leg became badly infected and swollen up to her knee.

[SoapySophie]

I was taught to be very careful how I lay the long line out so it doesn't snag while puppy is coming. Hopefully puppy comes so quickly you won't have time to reel the line in so it'll just have to fold back on itself. Of course it's there so if you do need to give a few tugs you can. Don't start at the full length of it.

Actually, the line didn't work for us. I used the fear method at first and had fabulous recall till 18 months. Then I used North/South fetching to get our fabulous recall back. The fear method I mentionned in post #65 did Jet for her whole life though.

ETA: Watch your own feet too, around your laid out rope. Not only might it give puppy an unpleasant jerk, it can do serious damage to your own ankles. A friend borrowed my line and got a very, very bad rope burn from my dirty, wet, fithy, swamp water soaked rope and her leg became badly infected and swollen up to her knee.

Great tips - thank you. I'll have to read up on how the fear method is done.