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  1. #31
    Best Friend Retriever xracer4844's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beth101509 View Post
    Actually I wasn't specifically thinking of anything when I mentioned "other things" I was just generalizing. Besides, I read you don't yank a chain or any leash straight up as it just creates pulling issues, you are supposed to yank it to the side to get the dog off balance and it is much easier to maneuver them.

    BUT if I decide I want to try a choke chain (which I did and had no issue with besides it turned my dog's fur gray so that went back), or if I hold his mouth shut a couple of times to prevent biting, or whatever else (I can't think of any other horrible acts I have made towards my dog that you ((generalization you)) would find offensive) then it is my right to learn through trial and error. That is the only way I know what does and does not work for me or my dog. I understand that in the past this and that was done but now it isn't. It's just like eggs and butter -- are they good or bad for you this year? It's just some person's opinion.

    So, having said that, I am going to remove myself from this particular thread as I honestly can't handle conversations that are closed minded and judgmental. Also, I feel this has gone WAY off topic from what the OP was looking for and that is not fair to them.

    I think if a person chooses to use a product such as Bitter Spray to try and ward off unwanted biting, I say "go for it...see if it works for you, if it does, than awesome, if it doesn't, try something else until you get the desired effect you are going for". This goes for any type of training method. Trial and error, trial and error. I see no problem with that.

    Oh, just so you know, I do use positive reinforcement. I also use corrections when needed. It works for me and it works for my dog.
    The only close minded person I see here is you. At no point did I scold TuMicks…I offered a suggestion to improve on “grabbing the snout” - pinching the jowls which works better and is more effective if done properly.

    I will now quote myself to prove that I did not say anything negative: I have no problem using some of the methods tumicks wrote about, however I have adapted them. I never grab snouts. The action of grabbing a dogs snout can trigger a reflex reaction to snap. When I'm working with dogs, especially service dogs, this is obviously not acceptable. I will grab the jowls instead with a pinch, re-direct the eyes to me, paired with a verbal "NO BITING" etc.

    This was merely a suggestion from EXPERIENCE, which has been proved, that some dogs will snap at the site of hands coming to squeeze their snout…I realize that your dogs do not snap at you and I’m obviously foolish for writing this.

    You then wrote this: “Does the mom dog not "man-handle" as you put it (labradorks), the puppies when they do unwanted behaviors? Does she not nip at them, redirect them, or walk away from them when she does not appreciate their behavior? I don't think anything that TuMicks has said has warranted the term "man-handling".

    I replied with this to clarify “man-handling”: “Nipping, redirection, and walking away is not manhandling. Grabbing a dog by the scruff is man handling
    I then wrote about the way I did things in the past, how training has evolved since then as we now have a better understanding on how to do things, and why we do things. At no point did I say tumicks is wrong and I’m right. At no point did I criticize anyone. I wrote information down from my experience.

    I then closed with: “To say that you've done it a couple of times, and no harm done is just a really naive way to look at training in my opinion.

    I still stand by this statement. I understand why you take offense to this because you wrote this closing argument: “What harm was done?? He is a normal, well-behaved dog. He doesn't shy away from anyone that touches his face. He doesn't cower from me when I give him a command. He doesn't run in the opposite direction when I enter a room. He doesn't act out in an aggressive manner or any manner for that fact.
    I find it so crazy that some people that are just dog owners have such opinions and think they are right no matter what and refuse to accept other ways of thinking or doing things.


    I know MY dog. I can do what I want to MY dog. I do what works for me and MY dog. You don't know my dog, you have never met my dog or me. You cannot tell me that I have physically hurt my dog or that we have a "weakened" relationship because I closed his mouth shut and told him not to bite when he was 9 or 10 weeks old. To say things that is just ignorant.”

    First of all, you are absolutely correct – no harm was done. I never said anything about you with a negative context. I wrote this: “Many years ago, all training consisted of manhandling and force. You could get the results you wanted by training this way, however the relationship between dog and handler suffered, and dogs became apprehensive. Which is an absolute correct statement. Dogs that were trained their whole lives with the use of manhandling and force were more reluctant to work and were more likely to be apprehensive. At no point did I say you and tumicks have done this, but you interpreted it that way.

    Secondly, I would like to think of myself as more than just a “dog owner” as you put it. I feel as though my experience, accomplishments, and personal goals speak for themselves.
    “I know MY dog. I can do what I want to MY dog. I do what works for me and MY dog.I’m not really sure of anything more closed minded than this statement. This is a forum where multiple people read posts whether they contribute or not. To say that “that works for my dog and that’s all that matters” is closed minded in my opinion. There are other people reading this forum, and my posts aren’t usually directed at an individual, more so just from my experiences, tailored to the masses. I merely offered a suggestion. If you don’t like them, no problem. At no point did I criticize anyone, I simply offered a little bit of insight.

    I’ll just skip past your last post as this bothers me the most…” So, having said that, I am going to remove myself from this particular thread as I honestly can't handle conversations that are closed minded and judgmental. Also, I feel this has gone WAY off topic from what the OP was looking for and that is not fair to them.
    As a trainer, I am so far away from being closed minded. I get to look at each dog that comes to me individually, evaluate each dog and their behaviour, and come up with a solution to training. I look at each dog and handler differently. No one in dog training is the same. No dog is the same. I like to come up with solutions using various methods to best suit handler and dog. I don’t criticise someone that wants to use a slip chain, I don’t criticise someone that wants to use a prong, and I don’t criticize anyone that wants to use an e-collar. All I do is ask why. If they have good reasons as to why this is the best solution for them, then so be it. Personally, I prefer to use slip chains made by the same company – as that is how I was trained by my head trainer. I have grown to appreciate what a great tool they are, and can be. I am most comfortable training this way…however, not every dog does well with them. A lot of rescues I work with, I won’t start them this way, especially dogs that have trust issues.

    I pride myself on being very open minded and understanding to the different needs of people and their dogs. No matter what type of dog, and no matter what type of relationship. I am not one to criticise you for trying new things. I encourage it, usually with the hope that you will seek out a professional with experience in order to best use the tool that you have selected. I am not going to tell you listen to me because I am correct, and I don’t believe I write my postings that way. I do tend to express caution to people when trying certain tools for the first time, and you’ll notice I usually will never give advice on how to give corrections without being able to show you how and why. I use a scale of 1-10 for corrections.

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  3. #32
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanya View Post
    but really - given ALL the options to train a dog to not bite, a puppy, how is using a toxic substance, even if it's not "that toxic and shouldn't kill the dog" even on the list. there are simply SO MANY other safe options with zero risk.

    I've been tempted to flag this post to an admin - even if it's not "that toxic" recommending someone use a toxic substance for their dog to lick/bite to detour biting is dangerous.
    I don't know. Nothing is risk free. For example... you're recommending Bitter Apple Spray. Are you sure you want to expose your dog to isopropyl alcohol? It's metabolized to acetone in the dog's body and that is quite toxic to neurons. Not to mention that it is flammable! Eeegads people!!! What are you doing!!! We hear all the time that some dogs love Bitter Apple and lick it freely. Oh, sure, the alcohol is volatile. BUT if your standard is "zero toxicity"... give it up.

    By all means report this to the administrator. I think I've proven that almost any substance you can apply to inhibit chewing is noxious (i.e., unpleasant) to the dog and that's why it's effective. If you then examine the active ingredients and the carrier agents in almost ANY product, you can find SOMETHING about them that is, when taken in high enough concentrations, toxic. And then you can run around with your hair on fire.

    Whereas... just one large onion, or a package of Lipton onion soup, and pureed baby foods (which are often flavored with onion) can AND DOES produce severe anemia in dogs the size of labrador retrievers.

    But you are free to keep your home onion-free. I don't. In fact, I recommend many recipes containing onion. I actually keep several large onions in my refrigerator at all times. I could post my meatloaf recipe and in doing so be suggesting a very attractive poison for dogs. (Way more toxic than DEET). If you report me for recommending a single spray of DEET once every 4-5 years, then make sure the administrator cautions everyone to avoid discussions of spaghetti sauce and OMG!!! whatever you do don't discuss French onion soup.

    I gotta go, guys. Life calls. I'll let you carry on the outrage.

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  5. #33
    Senior Dog beth101509's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xracer4844 View Post
    The only close minded person I see here is you. At no point did I scold TuMicks…I offered a suggestion to improve on “grabbing the snout” - pinching the jowls which works better and is more effective if done properly.

    I will now quote myself to prove that I did not say anything negative: I have no problem using some of the methods tumicks wrote about, however I have adapted them. I never grab snouts. The action of grabbing a dogs snout can trigger a reflex reaction to snap. When I'm working with dogs, especially service dogs, this is obviously not acceptable. I will grab the jowls instead with a pinch, re-direct the eyes to me, paired with a verbal "NO BITING" etc.

    This was merely a suggestion from EXPERIENCE, which has been proved, that some dogs will snap at the site of hands coming to squeeze their snout…I realize that your dogs do not snap at you and I’m obviously foolish for writing this.

    You then wrote this: “Does the mom dog not "man-handle" as you put it (labradorks), the puppies when they do unwanted behaviors? Does she not nip at them, redirect them, or walk away from them when she does not appreciate their behavior? I don't think anything that TuMicks has said has warranted the term "man-handling".

    I replied with this to clarify “man-handling”: “Nipping, redirection, and walking away is not manhandling. Grabbing a dog by the scruff is man handling
    I then wrote about the way I did things in the past, how training has evolved since then as we now have a better understanding on how to do things, and why we do things. At no point did I say tumicks is wrong and I’m right. At no point did I criticize anyone. I wrote information down from my experience.

    I then closed with: “To say that you've done it a couple of times, and no harm done is just a really naive way to look at training in my opinion.

    I still stand by this statement. I understand why you take offense to this because you wrote this closing argument: “What harm was done?? He is a normal, well-behaved dog. He doesn't shy away from anyone that touches his face. He doesn't cower from me when I give him a command. He doesn't run in the opposite direction when I enter a room. He doesn't act out in an aggressive manner or any manner for that fact.
    I find it so crazy that some people that are just dog owners have such opinions and think they are right no matter what and refuse to accept other ways of thinking or doing things.


    I know MY dog. I can do what I want to MY dog. I do what works for me and MY dog. You don't know my dog, you have never met my dog or me. You cannot tell me that I have physically hurt my dog or that we have a "weakened" relationship because I closed his mouth shut and told him not to bite when he was 9 or 10 weeks old. To say things that is just ignorant.”

    First of all, you are absolutely correct – no harm was done. I never said anything about you with a negative context. I wrote this: “Many years ago, all training consisted of manhandling and force. You could get the results you wanted by training this way, however the relationship between dog and handler suffered, and dogs became apprehensive. Which is an absolute correct statement. Dogs that were trained their whole lives with the use of manhandling and force were more reluctant to work and were more likely to be apprehensive. At no point did I say you and tumicks have done this, but you interpreted it that way.

    Secondly, I would like to think of myself as more than just a “dog owner” as you put it. I feel as though my experience, accomplishments, and personal goals speak for themselves.
    “I know MY dog. I can do what I want to MY dog. I do what works for me and MY dog.I’m not really sure of anything more closed minded than this statement. This is a forum where multiple people read posts whether they contribute or not. To say that “that works for my dog and that’s all that matters” is closed minded in my opinion. There are other people reading this forum, and my posts aren’t usually directed at an individual, more so just from my experiences, tailored to the masses. I merely offered a suggestion. If you don’t like them, no problem. At no point did I criticize anyone, I simply offered a little bit of insight.

    I’ll just skip past your last post as this bothers me the most…” So, having said that, I am going to remove myself from this particular thread as I honestly can't handle conversations that are closed minded and judgmental. Also, I feel this has gone WAY off topic from what the OP was looking for and that is not fair to them.
    As a trainer, I am so far away from being closed minded. I get to look at each dog that comes to me individually, evaluate each dog and their behaviour, and come up with a solution to training. I look at each dog and handler differently. No one in dog training is the same. No dog is the same. I like to come up with solutions using various methods to best suit handler and dog. I don’t criticise someone that wants to use a slip chain, I don’t criticise someone that wants to use a prong, and I don’t criticize anyone that wants to use an e-collar. All I do is ask why. If they have good reasons as to why this is the best solution for them, then so be it. Personally, I prefer to use slip chains made by the same company – as that is how I was trained by my head trainer. I have grown to appreciate what a great tool they are, and can be. I am most comfortable training this way…however, not every dog does well with them. A lot of rescues I work with, I won’t start them this way, especially dogs that have trust issues.

    I pride myself on being very open minded and understanding to the different needs of people and their dogs. No matter what type of dog, and no matter what type of relationship. I am not one to criticise you for trying new things. I encourage it, usually with the hope that you will seek out a professional with experience in order to best use the tool that you have selected. I am not going to tell you listen to me because I am correct, and I don’t believe I write my postings that way. I do tend to express caution to people when trying certain tools for the first time, and you’ll notice I usually will never give advice on how to give corrections without being able to show you how and why. I use a scale of 1-10 for corrections.
    First of all, thank you for reiterating our entire conversation in this very LONG and drawn out rant.

    Second of all, most of it was a generalization and not a personal attack on you. Obviously, it wasn't an attack on you personally as I said something to the effect of "just dog owners". I am aware that you are trainer as you mention it often. So therefore, that comment could not have been about you. Don't read into things that aren't there and get all bent out of shape for nothing.

    Third, do you feel better after your rant and can we please be done with this argument because I am seriously over it.

    Fourth, if you feel I am closed minded, fine. Doesn't hurt my feelings one bit because A) I don't know you personally and you don't know me personally so your opinion of me means jack and B) everyone is entitled to their opinion and way of doing things and my original point of close mindedness is about people (generalized and not a personal attack on you) is that if I say I do this and get attacked for it because they don't agree with it is close minded in my opinion. You know what they say about assholes and opinions? Everyone's got one.
    “Don't allow your happiness to be interrupted by overly judgmental people. The problem is not you, because even if you do good all the time, they would still find a way to judge you wrongly.”
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  6. #34
    Senior Dog shellbell's Avatar
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    I don't understand the comparison between letting your dog lick DEET, and cooking onion recipes.

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  8. #35
    Best Friend Retriever Sue's Avatar
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    She's grasping at straws, Shellbell. To justify her use of DEET to stop chewing, I guess. I'm beginning to think this thread should be locked. It's getting nasty in here.
    (See above posts)
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    ​Decisions, decisions, decisions


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    “It came to me that every time I lose a dog they take a piece of my heart with them. And every new dog who comes into my life gifts me with a piece of their heart. If I live long enough, all the components of my heart will be dog, and I will become as generous and loving as they are.”

    Cheryl Zuccaro

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  10. #36
    Senior Dog charliebbarkin's Avatar
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    There's nothing of value here. Can it please just be removed.
    Charlie and Burton


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  12. #37
    Best Friend Retriever xracer4844's Avatar
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    All i know about onions is:

    To develop and keep that dry outer layer, they need to be “cured” and
    kept in a dry environment like a pantry, which is not as damp as the refrigerator. Also, lack of air circulation will cause onions to spoil, as will storing them near potatoes, which give off moisture and gas thatcan cause onions to spoil quickly

    TUMICKS i am totally joking

  13. #38
    Best Friend Retriever xracer4844's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beth101509 View Post
    first of all, thank you for reiterating our entire conversation in this very long and drawn out rant.

    Second of all, most of it was a generalization and not a personal attack on you. Obviously, it wasn't an attack on you personally as i said something to the effect of "just dog owners". I am aware that you are trainer as you mention it often. So therefore, that comment could not have been about you. Don't read into things that aren't there and get all bent out of shape for nothing.

    Third, do you feel better after your rant and can we please be done with this argument because i am seriously over it.

    Fourth, if you feel i am closed minded, fine. Doesn't hurt my feelings one bit because a) i don't know you personally and you don't know me personally so your opinion of me means jack and b) everyone is entitled to their opinion and way of doing things and my original point of close mindedness is about people (generalized and not a personal attack on you) is that if i say i do this and get attacked for it because they don't agree with it is close minded in my opinion. You know what they say about assholes and opinions? Everyone's got one.
    i do feel better thank you (THIS IS GENUINE AND NOT SARCASTIC)

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  15. #39
    House Broken AlexS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sue View Post
    She's grasping at straws, Shellbell. To justify her use of DEET to stop chewing, I guess. I'm beginning to think this thread should be locked. It's getting nasty in here.
    (See above posts)
    Nah I have see way worse and seen people get banned for less. But I do agree its getting a bit heated.

 



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