An Apology, and a new question. (Important one to me)

[Bubby82102]

First off, let me say how sorry I am for my question about bitter apple spray. I see that it turned into an almost full blown argument on the later pages. I sure did not mean for THAT to happen, and I feel responsible, since it was my question.

Secondly, our puppy Baron has chosen me and my 2 younger kids to be his litter mates. When ever we get on the floor even when not near him, he charges, bites, growls, etc..which is all normal of course. The problem that has developed now, is the fact that Baron's biting has gotten harder. Especially with me. My wife, and older son who is 16 and a bit taller than I am, he doesn't do this with when they are on the floor. What worries me is the fact that with me, his biting has gotten a lot harder, and he seems more aggressive towards me instead of less, even with the "No bite" and "Leave it" commands. I can't even reach under the couch to get a toy for him, as my arm being there and exposed has gotten me 3 inch long gashes from teeth, pretty deep ones that bled for a while. Over the last 2 days, his biting has gotten very much harder and he seems to clamp down on me harder and harder.

My method of dealing with his biting has been to free myself and try to get a hand on each side of his face, and look at him and say "No bite" while holding his face. It seems if I open my mouth while doing that, he backs off a bit, but otherwise, even whispering "no bite", or firmly stating it, doesn't seem to phase him.

Is this a sign of things to come? I mean..he is biting me easily twice as hard as he was 3 days ago.

I have even tried hand feeding him his meals, and during these times he is fine. He eats the food out of my hands, and I make sure to give him his praise word, which is good. With my younger kids (ages 12 and 11) he is not biting anywhere near as hard, the same frequency of biting them as he bites me, but no where near as hard.

So, to sum it up...is this going to be how it goes with him and I? I thought the biting would get better, instead of worse.

[Tanya]

have you started puppy classes yet? It sounds like you would really really really benefit from talking to a trainer in person. The board is great and you will continue to get advice but since this same question keeps coming up I am thinking you would benefit from some "in person" help - and in person confidence booster.

If the class isn't enough maybe one session at home with a trainer (doesn't have to be a full blown private training package just one 45-60 session at your home to asses the dog and chat to teh entire family)? The puppy class if it's a good one should be a good place to start asking the questions too (and may be able to offer a short session at the school for your family if not at home).

[Bubby82102]

We started puppy class last week. I have been working daily with him on his training exercises. We have the trainer coming next Saturday to our home.

Could it be lack of socialization?? He was raised with a TON of full grown dogs, half of them Akitas and the other half Labs.

We are wondering if all he got for socialization the first 8 weeks was a bunch of bullying by other dogs, and a lot of getting bit and whatnot.

[Labradorks]

First, don't apologize for that threat. Sometimes they just go off on tangents that are of no fault to the original poster.

Second, I'd probably stay up off of the floor. I think that was mentioned early on. When I was dating someone with kids years ago, it was a rule with Sam because any time anyone was on the floor, he felt like they were there to wrestle. He has such a high play drive, this "rule" actually lasted for his first year. Anyway, if that is something that causes the biting, stop doing it if it's not something you have to do. Know what I mean?

Finally, I'm glad you started class and are having a trainer come by. I'd sure he or she will show you some better ways to deal with the puppy and the biting, since what you're doing is not working.

[Tanya]

Hard to say.

generally they learn some bite inhibition during week 5-8 from littermates and mom by exploring with their teeth (oh oops did I bite you too hard?). BUT even then, they don't just skip the biting phase. It takes time. it's natural for them to explore with their teeth.

Your pup sounds normal. Maybe on the more rambunctious side of the normal scale but nothing you say makes it sound like a bad puppy or a demon dog (well no more than normal puppies haha). It'll take many weeks of routine and consistancy though, to see progress.

Make sure he gets plenty of age appropriate exericse (at that age, short burts of free play/running around the yard). Puppy play at class is good. Socialisation in a safe manner. Lots of mental stimulation (again sessions should be short). Patience, consitancy, patience.

See if there is a certain period of the day where it's worse. An overtired puppy is like an overtired toddler - so if it seems to be worse at a specific time best to try and encourage some rest (crate time with safe chew or yummy treats) to encourage a nap before that time of day arrives.

Make sure he has plenty of good appropriate chew toys. Have many and rotate them so tey are not all out all the time. redirect to a toy when he gets nippy.

[Bubby82102]

Hey Labra...

Well, the biting still happens when I'm not on the floor, he will just jump at me while I'm sitting on the couch. LOL...

Hopefully this trainer will help. She did say that he appears to be VERY dominant and not at all submissive. A puppy with no fear. LOL...She also told me to avoid tug of war with him, as that can make the dominance worse.

Back about 10 years or so ago, we went to a class about aggression in dogs, and how to establish that you and your family members are the alpha's. This lady said that flipping a dog on it's back while standing over him/her and saying NO would help explain to them who the alpha is. I tried that, but he thought I was playing.

So, we will see what the trainer says and does.

Monday is our first class with Baron.

[Tanya]

ok I recommend a different trainer. I am VERY wary of a trainer that calls a 10-11 week old puppy dominant. i would worry she will recommend more old school ideas to "show him who is boss". Can you possibly get a recommendation for a more nuanced trainer that isn't all about dominance theory?

[Bubby82102]

His morning time to about noon is usually his worst. Seems later in the day he's better. Until then trying to pet him is like an exercise in futility. LOL.

To exercise him, I used walks, fetch with a stick, give him ice cubes in his kennel, we have a couple plastic mountain dew bottles, a couple nylabones I try to get him to bite on.

We don't have a fenced in yard, and he absolutely eats everything in our yard, so we can't allow him off his leash. He's starting to run away from us now as well when outside, so we are walking him around the boundaries of the yard over and over all around the house.

Trying to get him to know where he can go and where he has to stop.

Hard to say.

generally they learn some bite inhibition during week 5-8 from littermates and mom by exploring with their teeth (oh oops did I bite you too hard?). BUT even then, they don't just skip the biting phase. It takes time. it's natural for them to explore with their teeth.

Your pup sounds normal. Maybe on the more rambunctious side of the normal scale but nothing you say makes it sound like a bad puppy or a demon dog (well no more than normal puppies haha). It'll take many weeks of routine and consistancy though, to see progress.

Make sure he gets plenty of age appropriate exericse (at that age, short burts of free play/running around the yard). Puppy play at class is good. Socialisation in a safe manner. Lots of mental stimulation (again sessions should be short). Patience, consitancy, patience.

See if there is a certain period of the day where it's worse. An overtired puppy is like an overtired toddler - so if it seems to be worse at a specific time best to try and encourage some rest (crate time with safe chew or yummy treats) to encourage a nap before that time of day arrives.

Make sure he has plenty of good appropriate chew toys. Have many and rotate them so tey are not all out all the time. redirect to a toy when he gets nippy.

[Bubby82102]

ok I recommend a different trainer. I am VERY wary of a trainer that calls a 10-11 week old puppy dominant. i would worry she will recommend more old school ideas to "show him who is boss". Can you possibly get a recommendation for a more nuanced trainer that isn't all about dominance theory?

We will have to look into it. She told me that it's ok to use his kennel as well when he gets totally bonkers..by throwing some kibble in there and just shutting the door. She said 5 to 10 minutes in there at this age.

[Tanya]

We will have to look into it. She told me that it's ok to use his kennel as well when he gets totally bonkers..by throwing some kibble in there and just shutting the door. She said 5 to 10 minutes in there at this age.

i agree with that much (as long as he is rewarded in crate).

but explaining the puppy behaviour by saying he is very dominant makes me very wary. very. approach with caution.