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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowshoe View Post
    IMO this is part of the problem. Only say it once and make the consequences immediate. You wouldn't ask for a SIT and say it more than once. Well you shouldn't. Even more important for biting, I think, that you only tell him once, no second chances and certainly not three.
    I agree completely. Dogs/puppies aren’t like children who can understand the concept of a warning. From the dog’s perspective either the command always means something or it doesn’t. All giving a warning does is tell him that “NO BITE” only means something every so often, and since the behavior of biting is self-rewarding he’s getting positive reinforcement for it much more frequently than he is getting negative reinforcement . You need to make it so something he doesn’t care for (whatever consequence you choose to use) happens each and every time if you want to extinguish the behavior.
    Annette

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  3. #42
    Senior Dog Tanya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkDragon14 View Post
    He wakes up around 6-6:30a, eats his breakfast, takes a few trips outside, chews on his toys, *sometimes* falls asleep (he's growing out of his frequent naps sadly), eats his next meal around 12:30-1, plays with his toys, trips outside (this is usually when I try to run him around), an afternoon nap, eats his dinner around 7, plays until bed.
    based on this, and i may be wrong, but sounds like he needs more exericse. you say he gets riled up when he gets up from a nap and you let him out to pee and comes in - when of course, when he wakes up from a nap he will need exercise (physical/mental). playing on his own with toys won't really count as high level exercise. it's nice, keeps him busy but won't tire him out too too much (generally speaking, sometimes they can get into it). if the oly play sessino you do is in the middle of the day that isn't enough. Trips outside where you don't interact and get him playing are not exercise. play can also be replaced by some training (work the brain). but it depends what you mean by "play". he also needs frequent short training sessions (after play is best when he isn't too riled up, but also not too tired).

    I don't understand what "warnings" are. puppies don't have an understanding of warnings. immediate consequence or it doesnt have an impact. so if 2/3times there is no correction/action taken then the puppy won't learn to stop it cuz they get away with it more often then they get the consequence.

    note: i use terms like consequence/correction but i don't mean "punishment". just that if you are doing something to curb biting (ex: yelp and turn around, or pinch lip to tooth) it needs to be all teh time and consistant. no warnings. if you and the puppy need a break then to the crate but again, no need for "3 warnings" just do it. MORE importantly - reward the good behaviour! and set up so that odds are the pup will offer the good behaviour (ex: crating for nap tiem before they are too tired and having a good mix of physical and mental stimulatino over the day. Having lots of set-up good interactions (training and such).
    Last edited by Tanya; 09-01-2015 at 03:27 PM.

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  5. #43
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    I guess I don't get the whole thing with consequences and puppies trying to get away with stuff. They all do these things because that's what they do. 100% of the puppies born do this stuff to different degrees. They don't sit around and think of ways to be bad and get away with stuff. Dog just don't do that. If the dog is not getting enough attention or is bored, then yes, they will seek attention and something to do regardless of whether it is negative or positive. So, look at how you interact with him. How much negative versus positive attention does he receive? Do you seek out opportunities for positive interactions? Instead of punishing him for doing what puppies do, why not ensure he is getting what he needs mentally and physically and teach him how you want him to behave? Why not increase the amount of positive interactions so that he seeks that out instead? Puppies can learn awfully fast what is required for positive attention and will offer those behaviors instead. But, you have to teach it. If you ignore or very quietly deal with poor behavior and loudly and happily deal with good behavior (whatever he prefers), he will no longer seek out negative attention because it's boring, it's not really attention and the positive stuff is way better. That is taught. When he is being quiet, sitting nicely, playing nicely with a toy or just doing something you like, let him know!

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  7. #44
    Best Friend Retriever xracer4844's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkDragon14 View Post
    He's definitely not tired. He usually sleeps for 2hrs or so, wakes up, goes outside, comes back in, and begins his rampage. Then he ends up back in there and falls asleep again. He does it when he wakes up in the morning too (even after sleeping all night).

    Personally, I think he thinks it's a game. Whenever I tell him NO BITE, he comes back with more force. I give him 3 warnings and into the crate he goes.

    Yesterday, he bit my foot (like he took my foot and bit the entire thing), I yelled at him, he walked away, and peed in front of the tv. I don't know if that was a coincidence or vengeance, but I was furious and disappointed. He made it 3 weeks without an accident until yesterday. Oh the joys of puppyhood :P

    I will admit though - sometimes he is tired or hungry, but most of the time he isn't.
    AGREED with Snowshoe. Dogs do not understand "warnings" or "chances" or "times" - all this does is sends an unclear message. Labs are hugely intelligent - however, the way they learn is pretty simple. Re-commanding is a big NONO especially once you get into more advanced training and dog sports like Rally where commands need to be followed.

    Saying sit, SIT, sittt, Sitttttt, Sit GOOOOD BOYYYYY - this is not teaching very much. Sure eventually the dog will sit, but you are reinforcing that the sit is on THEIR time.

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  9. #45
    Real Retriever PinkDragon14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rochie427 View Post
    Our Rosie who recently turned one was a land shark, spawn of satan, you name it when she was young. We found that when she got into her crazy moments a short time in her crate calmed her down. I can't tell you how many holes I have in my jeans, shirts, my favorite denim jacket, not to mention the battle scars I have LOL. It wasn't until we had a trainer come to the house that things started to settle down. Turns out what we thought was right was wrong and we were sending mixed messages to Rosie.

    What everyone said is right concerning when the nipping usually stops. She'll still put her mouth on us but is more gentle. Another thing that is a must is exercise. I found that a 40 - 45 minute walk first thing in the morning knocks her out for most of the day. I'll also play with her inside as well.

    Getting her into her crate was a struggle but over time she came to accept it as her get away place. She now readily goes in whenever she is tired.

    All dogs are different but just remember patience and consistency is key.
    I think he sees his crate as a getaway (I've found him sleeping in there on his own many times), but he doesn't like to lay down and nap anymore. If this was around a month ago, he'd go and sleep behind the couch on the vent; now, he doesn't care.

    His next set of shots is a week from this Saturday. We're VERY eager to get him out and walking on the street/trails, but the vet recommended that we wait for this next set. He's 1 set behind, so I guess this would be the 12-13wk set (or whatever that set is).

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowshoe View Post
    IMO this is part of the problem. Only say it once and make the consequences immediate. You wouldn't ask for a SIT and say it more than once. Well you shouldn't. Even more important for biting, I think, that you only tell him once, no second chances and certainly not three.
    Ok. I'll try the one and then into the crate. (I'm sure my future kids will love me for giving them tons of warnings before a time out LOL)

    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    If you know he's going to be crazy at certain times, why not use those times to play games (fetch, hide and seek, etc.) and do a little training after playing? You can play a game as simple as when he makes the choice to bite a toy instead of you, mark it and give him a treat. There's all kinds of positive things you can do with your pup right now. He's probably bright and wanting to learn. Are you doing any training at the moment?

    While crating a naughty puppy is great when they need a nap or if you have hit your boiling point and need a break yourself, it really does not teach them what you want from them. Especially when that behavior is just them being a puppy. I mean, you can't train being a puppy out of a puppy. The puppy will grow out of the biting. He sounds like a tough one, though, so I get your frustration. But, what are you doing to help him alleviate that need, to blow off steam and to learn what you do what from him?

    Are you training him?
    Are you exercising him?
    Are you getting him out and socializing him?
    Are you allowing him to play with other, appropriate dogs or puppies?
    Are you being consistent?
    Are you creating a structured home?
    Are you trying to teach him the behaviors you want from him or are you fighting about all of the behaviors you do not want?
    Are you setting him up for success?
    We're currently working on the basics with him (leash training, sit, stay, come, etc.) and I try to incorporate it when he'll actually listen to what I'm saying.

    He definitely is a tough one. When we picked him out, he was extremely calm and cuddly - wasn't biting his litter mates, yelping a ton, etc. Just wanted to cuddle in our laps and be loved. Well, we got him home and it turned out that he was actually sick. The night that he came home from the vet hospital, he was bouncing off of the walls and hasn't stopped since. I'm thinking a part of his problem is he never learned the bite inhibition from his mother/litter mates since he was so sick.

    As I stated in a post above, we're going to start walking him on the streets/trails and socializing him with other puppies/dogs as well after his next shots. We do go in the backyard and throw his kong, a stick, rope, etc. to get him running around. I may take him swimming tonight as we have high 80s today and high humidity. Swimming is one of his favorite things to do and it tires him out. Too bad it'll be snowing in another 1 1/2 - 2 months!

    Stupid question, but would a slow walk on the treadmill be ok? Obviously, the speed would be one of the lowest settings, but I'm wondering if that would be good (especially in the winter)
    ~Alyssa
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  10. #46
    Real Retriever PinkDragon14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanya View Post
    based on this, and i may be wrong, but sounds like he needs more exericse. you say he gets riled up when he gets up from a nap and you let him out to pee and comes in - when of course, when he wakes up from a nap he will need exercise (physical/mental). playing on his own with toys won't really count as high level exercise. it's nice, keeps him busy but won't tire him out too too much (generally speaking, sometimes they can get into it). if the oly play sessino you do is in the middle of the day that isn't enough. Trips outside where you don't interact and get him playing are not exercise. play can also be replaced by some training (work the brain). but it depends what you mean by "play". he also needs frequent short training sessions (after play is best when he isn't too riled up, but also not too tired).

    I don't understand what "warnings" are. puppies don't have an understanding of warnings. immediate consequence or it doesnt have an impact. so if 2/3times there is no correction/action taken then the puppy won't learn to stop it cuz they get away with it more often then they get the consequence.

    note: i use terms like consequence/correction but i don't mean "punishment". just that if you are doing something to curb biting (ex: yelp and turn around, or pinch lip to tooth) it needs to be all teh time and consistant. no warnings. if you and the puppy need a break then to the crate but again, no need for "3 warnings" just do it. MORE importantly - reward the good behaviour! and set up so that odds are the pup will offer the good behaviour (ex: crating for nap tiem before they are too tired and having a good mix of physical and mental stimulatino over the day. Having lots of set-up good interactions (training and such).
    I read a post somewhere on the forum (not sure who said it) that when the pup is playing with a toy or not biting, drop a treat near them and praise. I tried doing that last night...except his jaw met my leg before my hand even touched the treat. I'm going to try again tonight with that and keep them in my pocket. I guess I didn't think that one through

    His treat dispenser came in the mail today, but I haven't had a free second to look at the instructions. I'm hoping that'll help give him a little mental stimulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    I guess I don't get the whole thing with consequences and puppies trying to get away with stuff. They all do these things because that's what they do. 100% of the puppies born do this stuff to different degrees. They don't sit around and think of ways to be bad and get away with stuff. Dog just don't do that. If the dog is not getting enough attention or is bored, then yes, they will seek attention and something to do regardless of whether it is negative or positive. So, look at how you interact with him. How much negative versus positive attention does he receive? Do you seek out opportunities for positive interactions? Instead of punishing him for doing what puppies do, why not ensure he is getting what he needs mentally and physically and teach him how you want him to behave? Why not increase the amount of positive interactions so that he seeks that out instead? Puppies can learn awfully fast what is required for positive attention and will offer those behaviors instead. But, you have to teach it. If you ignore or very quietly deal with poor behavior and loudly and happily deal with good behavior (whatever he prefers), he will no longer seek out negative attention because it's boring, it's not really attention and the positive stuff is way better. That is taught. When he is being quiet, sitting nicely, playing nicely with a toy or just doing something you like, let him know!
    I hate to say it, but I think he receives more negative attention than positive. I feel awful for not giving him enough positive attention, but whenever I try to, he's quick to back up and proceed with his negative action.

    Here's a weird thing I'll throw out here for everyone - my father hardly gets bit. Whenever he says NO BITE, he stops or walks away. When I say no bite, he continues biting. I may be wrong, but I think Murphy sees my father as the alpha? I've done everything he does but with no results.

    I'm going to let him know about the no warnings thing tonight and we'll try that out. I'm also going to try and drop treats by him when he's being good. Hopefully we'll have a good outcome

    Quote Originally Posted by xracer4844 View Post
    AGREED with Snowshoe. Dogs do not understand "warnings" or "chances" or "times" - all this does is sends an unclear message. Labs are hugely intelligent - however, the way they learn is pretty simple. Re-commanding is a big NONO especially once you get into more advanced training and dog sports like Rally where commands need to be followed.

    Saying sit, SIT, sittt, Sitttttt, Sit GOOOOD BOYYYYY - this is not teaching very much. Sure eventually the dog will sit, but you are reinforcing that the sit is on THEIR time.
    If he doesn't listen the first time (with any command), what should I do? Should I walk away and try again later? I don't want him to get the idea that it's on his time (I never thought of it that way until your post - thank you!)
    ~Alyssa
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  11. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkDragon14 View Post
    Here's a weird thing I'll throw out here for everyone - my father hardly gets bit. Whenever he says NO BITE, he stops or walks away. When I say no bite, he continues biting. I may be wrong, but I think Murphy sees my father as the alpha? I've done everything he does but with no results.
    I don’t like the term alpha, particularly, but dogs do respond to confidence and firmness ... for whatever reason (and without watching you it would be hard to pinpoint), Murphy thinks your father means it, and that you don’t really. Sometimes it’s all in the delivery - you have to give the command with the expectation that it WILL be behaved and really project that.

    It’s kind of like with my kids ... my eldest daughter (now 15) tends to give her father all of her teenage eye-rolling and attitude but is rarely if ever snippy with me. I asked her why and she said that the impulse was there with me, but that she holds it in because “I’m scared of YOU”. I laughed, but tried to get more of an idea what she meant as I rarely if ever punish my kids - don’t really need to so I was wondering what she meant by scared. She said that she can tell when I say something, that I mean it and I will stick to it, so she doesn’t want to really push me. With her father, she feels like it’s easier to get him to change or give in.
    Annette

    Cookie (HIT HC Jamrah's Legally Blonde, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015
    Sassy (HIT Jamrah's Blonde Ambition, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015

    Chloe (HIT HC OTCH Windsong's Femme Fatale, UDX4, OM6, RE) 6/7/2009

    And remembering:

    Scully (HC Coventry's Truth Is Out There, UD, TD, RN) 4/14/1996 - 6/30/2011
    Mulder (Coventry's I Want To Believe, UD, RN, WC) 5/26/1999 - 4/22/2015

    And our foster Jolie (Windsong's Genuine Risk, CDX) 5/26/1999 - 3/16/2014

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  12. #48
    Real Retriever PinkDragon14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annette47 View Post
    I don’t like the term alpha, particularly, but dogs do respond to confidence and firmness ... for whatever reason (and without watching you it would be hard to pinpoint), Murphy thinks your father means it, and that you don’t really. Sometimes it’s all in the delivery - you have to give the command with the expectation that it WILL be behaved and really project that.

    It’s kind of like with my kids ... my eldest daughter (now 15) tends to give her father all of her teenage eye-rolling and attitude but is rarely if ever snippy with me. I asked her why and she said that the impulse was there with me, but that she holds it in because “I’m scared of YOU”. I laughed, but tried to get more of an idea what she meant as I rarely if ever punish my kids - don’t really need to so I was wondering what she meant by scared. She said that she can tell when I say something, that I mean it and I will stick to it, so she doesn’t want to really push me. With her father, she feels like it’s easier to get him to change or give in.
    I try doing it in my best stern voice, but he kind of goes "heh, time to bite" and bites me. I swear he's deaf when I give him the no bite/gentle command...until you know, I say bologna and he's at my side in a second.
    ~Alyssa
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  13. #49
    Senior Dog Snowshoe's Avatar
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    I'm a bit sorry I used SIT as an example in my post up above because for us we didn't even use the word till we were sure the dog knew the hand signal first. Then we applied the word and if there was not the correct response at first we went back to the hand signal. Once we were sure the dog knew what SIT meant if he didn't comply we would either make him or wait him out. Waiting out works well if, say, you have to sit at the end of the driveway before we get to go for a walk. Usually the dog knows quite well he's not going anywhere till he does what you ask and compliance in this case, even if delayed, is rewarded by nothing more than continuing on for the walk. In and of itself that's a big reward for most dogs.

    When we learned SIT and DOWN it was by luring, first with a treat, then treat hidden and delayed, then no treat till after released from the exercise. Our trainer told us not to use the word out loud at all till we were so sure the hand signal was known that we would bet $50 on it. We allowed a bit of leeway in training but generally if the dog didn't do what we asked we were to examine what WE were doing because we were going too fast or too obscurely and the thought was the dog wasn't disobeying because he didn't want to SIT but because we had not made it clear what was wanted. You have to be judicious too, a young puppy is not likely to SIT outside at the dog park for a while, you have to build up distractions first.

  14. #50
    Real Retriever PinkDragon14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowshoe View Post
    I'm a bit sorry I used SIT as an example in my post up above because for us we didn't even use the word till we were sure the dog knew the hand signal first. Then we applied the word and if there was not the correct response at first we went back to the hand signal. Once we were sure the dog knew what SIT meant if he didn't comply we would either make him or wait him out. Waiting out works well if, say, you have to sit at the end of the driveway before we get to go for a walk. Usually the dog knows quite well he's not going anywhere till he does what you ask and compliance in this case, even if delayed, is rewarded by nothing more than continuing on for the walk. In and of itself that's a big reward for most dogs.

    When we learned SIT and DOWN it was by luring, first with a treat, then treat hidden and delayed, then no treat till after released from the exercise. Our trainer told us not to use the word out loud at all till we were so sure the hand signal was known that we would bet $50 on it. We allowed a bit of leeway in training but generally if the dog didn't do what we asked we were to examine what WE were doing because we were going too fast or too obscurely and the thought was the dog wasn't disobeying because he didn't want to SIT but because we had not made it clear what was wanted. You have to be judicious too, a young puppy is not likely to SIT outside at the dog park for a while, you have to build up distractions first.
    He's actually really good with sit (but then again, we haven't been around real world distractions). I've stopped using treats and just put my fingers together like I'm holding one. Sometimes he doesn't even need that. We're still working on stay though - that's a tricky one. He's learned to sit when we hold the leash and hold his dish full of food. He also sits when we open the fridge (I guess he's expecting a free treat)

    I took him downstairs and introduced him to the treadmill. I was only planning on 3-5mins of slow walking, but he took to it quickly. We ended up staying on it for 10mins and then he decided that was enough. I'm not complaining - I'm shocked I was able to get that much out of him! Now he's casually playing with his new rope and toys that came in the mail today. I think even just 10mins calmed him down. I'm excited to amp it up to 15mins in a few days
    ~Alyssa
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