Appropriate Play

[OCMama]

Max is 4 months old now. We started taking him to puppy kindergarten when we was 10 weeks and daycare once or twice a week for the past month for socialization. During class, he is always jumping all over the other pups and leads with his mouth. The trainer says he's an instigator, but not in an aggressive way. We always walk around with him and make sure to separate him if he's getting out of hand. The daycare has called us a couple times because they had to separate him from the other dogs because he just wouldn't stop playing and jumping all over them and it was making some of the dogs upset. They also have said that he gets overly excited and doesn't know how to control himself or stop when he's corrected by the dogs. At home, our 9 year old Yorkie/Pomeranian wants nothing to do with him, but Max will chase her around the house and won't leave her alone even when she nips at him and growls. We have to physically remove him away from her. This past weekend, my niece brought her 7 month old German Shepard/Akita mix for a play date. Max loved playing with him, but again was leading with his mouth and going for the neck. The other dog never yelped or got upset, so it seemed like they were playing just fine. We corrected him and separated them to show him that the way he was playing is not appropriate behavior, but he just doesn't seem to learn. I really don't know what else we should be doing. Any suggestions?

[Labradorks]

This is fairly normal Lab puppy behavior.

IMHO, four months is too young for doggie daycare. It is mostly a free-for-all. There are what, 2 - 3 people watching at least 20 dogs? Yikes! I have two Labs and when I take them to some sort of a group play situation, it's pretty tough to keep an eye on both of them. So, basically, your puppy is probably often not being shown the correct behavior because those people cannot be at 20 places at once. Sometimes he is, sure, but I can guarantee you that at least 80% of the time he's not.

The key is supervision and redirection, not being allowed to get to that place where he's being too rough.

If you are having a playdate, keep an eye on your puppy. BEFORE things get to a bad place, using a toy or treat and holding the puppy's collar (not dragging the puppy by the collar) tell the pup, "let's take a break" and lead him away for a little time out. The key is that the puppy is not in trouble, he is simply taking a break so he does not reach the point of over-stimulation. Also, is the puppy collar conditioned as in he's been taught that collar grabbing is good? Most puppy classes cover that.

He will mature and the corrections will mean more to him and he'll most likely heed them. You might want to have playdates with mature dogs that give firm but fair corrections. In my experience, female dogs are pretty good at this. I would nix the doggy daycare until he is mature.

[Annette47]

He sounds like a typical Lab puppy ... and not all other breeds, especially older dogs, like to play as rough as Labs do. Just keep working with him and redirecting him if he gets too excited. Much of this should improve with age, but at the same time, he does need to learn how to respect another dog’s correction before they feel the need to administer a stronger correction. It sounds to me like you are doing the right things, so just keep it up and don’t expect him to “get it” right away. Don’t let him play with other dogs unsupervised though, since you will need to be paying close attention - I would look more at the other dog’s reaction to see when it is “too much”, rather than specifically at what he is doing. Leading with his mouth and biting at the neck is normal play for a puppy, but the problem seems to be more that most of his playmates don’t want to play that way, and he needs to learn to respect that.

[zd262]

I have been facing similar problems with my 5 month old. In terms of the daycare, it sounds like they have him in the wrong group...he should be in a group with other large breed, under 1 year olds who can match his energy level. The few times I had to leave my dog at daycare I also purposefully asked that they take him out of the group setting for an hour each day for him to decompress, because I know he can't self regulate.

Something that has helped a lot are interactions with dogs who I am positive are in no way going to hurt him or become actually aggressive, but who I know will correct him when he gets on their nerves (like a mom dog would). After two corrects usually Bubba learns to just run circles around those dogs instead of actually trying to actively play with them haha. Not sure if you have any friends with dogs who would meet this criteria.

It's a hard part of puppyhood. They just want to play and it can be sad (and scary) to watch them be rejected

Others probably have better suggestions than I do!

[JenC]

You should try raising a Griffon puppy. At 13 weeks, Wrigs is all teeth and fur during play. We had a field lab like that as a puppy too. They grow out of it. Also, when they seem to be at their worst, often times they need a time out for a forced nap. They are over tired and need to be made to lay down. Just like when kids get bratty, they tend to need a nap.

[Tanya]

yeah that sounds like a puppy. a lab puppy. he's four months old OF COURSE he can'ts top playing and has trouble controlling his play!! he's a big baby! (big compared to other breeds that are smaller). not an adult dog. but many breeds play with their mouth/are grabby. my younger pup is always grabbing her bff's fur and pulling. we manage and ensure he doesn't get hurt but it's part of how those two play.

I echo the above that doggy daycare is not always a great place for puppies learning skills but this would depend on the daycare. if it's one person per 10+ dogs I would say no. if it's someone watching fewer dogs and on top of play and giving breaks and knowledgeable it could be ok.

also agree with needing forced breaks/naps. not in a "corection" sorta way just happily seperate him, give him a treat and have him take a forced break.

[kimbersmom]

In another thread, OP said Max is going to DDC just once a week so I'm not too worried about it (if it's a safe environment, of course.) But I well remember how rough lab puppies play, so my sympathies. Kimber and her friend Molly used to drag each other around by their necks! It looked awful but when we broke them up, they'd look at us like, "What?" all lab smiles and tail wags, and then they'd dive back in and resume wrestling. As others said, it sounds normal but you do need to be vigilant. Also, be ready for non-lab owners to be horrified observers.

[Tanya]

In another thread, OP said Max is going to DDC just once a week so I'm not too worried about it (if it's a safe environment, of course.) But I well remember how rough lab puppies play, so my sympathies. Kimber and her friend Molly used to drag each other around by their necks! It looked awful but when we broke them up, they'd look at us like, "What?" all lab smiles and tail wags, and then they'd dive back in and resume wrestling. As others said, it sounds normal but you do need to be vigilant. Also, be ready for non-lab owners to be horrified observers.

if you think labs are bad don't look at the herders LOL! nip nip nip, grab grab grab (not all of them but some herders can have funky habits too). I had issues with lots of my younger fosters of various herding mixes grabbing the legs of other dogs in chase. horrible, I could see the broken/injured leg/ligament/muscle coming so I did all I could to stop that. Labs are more "use their body and body check" which doesn't work with all dogs.

My younger dog (not a puppy!) loves to ram into dogs. i mean litteraly, full tilt run INTO dogs (if it's a small dog she will slightly go over but often end up bowling them over). needless to say we don't do dog parks she also does the chase and grab (grab the neck).

Totally agree DDC totally depends on the individual facility and people who are there caring for the dogs. Some have trainers and small groups and super structure so it coudl be great. others are more chaos and staff that "love dogs but may not really "know" dogs".

[OCMama]

Thanks for the replies. Just to clarify, when I say we correct him, what I really meant was we redirect him. He's not ever aggressive, just full of energy. I don't know anyone else with a lab that he can play with. He seemed to play great with my niece's dog, but my sister was getting a little nervous so I would stop Max and give him a little break. He is my first lab, so I wasn't sure if this behavior was normal. Feels like everyone around us doesn't think it is. At daycare, he's in with the bigger dogs. They currently have him on "managed intro" where they take him back but let him get used to being there (he's always so excited) before they put him in with the rest of the dogs. Didn't get a call last week or today yet (crossing my fingers). Another lab puppy about the same age as him, was there last week & they told me that he & that pup played very well together. Maybe that's what he needs. A lab sibling that's his age. Yeah right!

[Tanya]

he could probably use with some play with bigger than him dogs hard being the biggest most rambunctious pup, normal that he ends up on top and roughing the others ones up some!

getting used to dog play is hard. I was freaked out my first while at the dog park, luckily the others there helped me saying what was ok and what was not and then I learned much over the years (especially with lots of young fosters!).

One great test which I am sure was mentionned already is to seperate the dogs. let the one you "fear was being picked on" loose and see what they do. if they go right back and tackle/engage the "aggressor" then the dog is liking the play and you let them continue to play. If the dog goes away from teh instigator then they are not into the play and best to end it for a little bit and maybe try again later. But even if both dogs are "into it" there is nothing wrong wtih regular "calm down" breaks. dogs often do this on their own (bring the play down) but with younger dogs or over exelerated dogs they don't so you have to help them by "forcing" mini breaks to bring down the energy