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  1. #1
    Senior Dog zd262's Avatar
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    More LLW Questions - Choke Collar + Positive Training?

    Hi everyone! I think I've posted a few times about loose leash walking questions, it's been a big focus for Bubba for awhile. Bubba is 7 months now. We've been working on loose leash walking probably since he was about 4 months old. The main method we've used is walking with a flat collar and leash, saying "Yes' (we've always trained with this word for verbal clicker training), and treating when he continues to walk with me. Every few steps or more or less depending on how difficult the scenario we are in is.

    When we are doing our normal walking routes, and it is a "structured walk" aka treating & praising as we walk, Bubba stays focused on me about 70% of the time and doesn't pull. If it isn't a structured walk in our regular areas with lots of praise and treating, or if we encounter other dogs or humans, all bets are off.

    We've also tried a front clip harness which has basically no impact on his pulling and I don't feel comfortable with since he still pulls so hard on it, it seems really unhealthy (plus other issues with front clip harnesses in general).

    Basically I think Bubba knows that it is good to stay by my side because he gets positive reinforcement and treats, but he doesn't know that it is bad to pull. When he pulls I have tried either just planting my feet and he usually pulls and then gives up and sits down at the very end of my feet. Or I've tried little short tugs to re-direct him to me.

    We're not currently in any classes because I'm going to be away for so much of the holidays, so I'll be entering a class in January and I think that will help, but I was considering coupling a choke collar with the positive training I've been doing. I'm not sure what else to do, especially as he continues to get larger and stronger.

    Thoughts?


    Edit: By choke collar I actually meant prong collar, sorry for misspeaking
    Last edited by zd262; 11-06-2015 at 02:11 PM.
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  2. #2
    Senior Dog Snowshoe's Avatar
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    Changing direction is what worked best for us. BEFORE he pulls, before, before, before. He wanted to go for a walk, he understood the walk was with me, changing direction kept him guessing which way it would be. We learned in class to do a formal lesson, mentally mark out a square on the ground, hit the corners as randomly as you can, do reverse and about reverse turns, bump him out of the way gently when needed.

    I have always used a Volhard collar, which is similar to a choker except it does up with a snap on a floating ring (or there's an option to not, in which case it will not choke) and went to a prong solely for control in close quarters and other dogs for a time. Oban once pulled me down the street wearing his prong, it's not pull proof but it helps. The prong only gave me control till we got past that distraction in training. I don't even know where it is now, in a drawer somewhere, haven't seen it in years. I still use a custom made chain Volhard because the snap allows me to fasten leash with collar attached around my waist when we go off leash.

    -volhard-collar-jpe
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  3. #3
    Senior Dog Jeff's Avatar
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    It really take some time, the thing that finally worked for Hemi was to have a gentle leader the one that goes around the muzzle. We start off walking, once he starts pulling it comes out of my pocket and gets put on. He quickly learned when he pulls he has to wear that. So now when he starts to pull I say Uh Oh, and he is like dang it don't get the Hanable Lecter Mask out and backs off.

    Also, For a while I used 2 leashes, one on the collar one on the gentle leader. I had slack in the gentle leader so basically he would start to pull, which would start to feel tight on his neck, then if he kept pulling then the gentle leader would get taught and turn his head. It takes some time, it really does. Cause a lab wants to go go go.

    A good article is
    How to Train Your Dog to Calmly Walk on Leash - Whole Dog Journal Article

    Then Also they have a E book for $9 that has a whole ton of great information on training to walk correctly
    Go here Whole Dog Journal
    Look for the Ebook "Walking Your Dog" if you pull up the details the title is "STOP THE PULLING!"
    I have this ebook and there is a lot of great information in there and tolls and tips and tricks.

  4. #4
    Senior Dog arentspowell's Avatar
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    I used a prong in combination with active training and we successfully transitioned off the prong. For me the prong was a corrector when I wasn't actively training.

  5. #5
    Senior Dog
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    Quote Originally Posted by arentspowell View Post
    I used a prong in combination with active training and we successfully transitioned off the prong. For me the prong was a corrector when I wasn't actively training.
    Same here, and the various dogs we’ve owned have needed various amounts of training (and time with a prong) to “get it”. Chloe and Cookie barely needed the prong at all. Mulder and Sassy more so. Scully could have used one but we didn’t find out about it until she was older.
    Annette

    Cookie (HIT HC Jamrah's Legally Blonde, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015
    Sassy (HIT Jamrah's Blonde Ambition, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015

    Chloe (HIT HC OTCH Windsong's Femme Fatale, UDX4, OM6, RE) 6/7/2009

    And remembering:

    Scully (HC Coventry's Truth Is Out There, UD, TD, RN) 4/14/1996 - 6/30/2011
    Mulder (Coventry's I Want To Believe, UD, RN, WC) 5/26/1999 - 4/22/2015

    And our foster Jolie (Windsong's Genuine Risk, CDX) 5/26/1999 - 3/16/2014

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  6. #6
    Senior Dog zd262's Avatar
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    Thanks for the replies everyone!

    I definitely recognize that it takes time, and I do plan to continue working on it, I just feel as though in Bubba's head he's like "when I want a treat, all I have to do is walk next to Mom for a little and then afterwards I can go chase that leaf again", which is not how I'd ideally like him to think.

    Jeff - I tried the a gentle leader briefly and it was not happening for Bubba, but I could go back to that again with lots of treats in hand. I'm a little concerned that similar to the front clip harness, he'll just run and pull and really hurt himself.

    Annette & Arentspowell - It's reassuring that this technique has worked for you. Right now I see it as the best option. I think getting into some sort of group walking class will really help, but I have to wait until after the holidays to do so. How did you transition off the prong?

    Snowshoe - When Bubba was 2-5 months I worked from home full time and I had plenty of time for mini training lessons. I definitely used the changing directions technique. Now that I'm back at work, our walks need to combine exercise with training. Usually it is walking & training while getting to the large field where we play fetch. How can you get where you're going while also training?
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  7. #7
    Senior Dog Snowshoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zd262 View Post

    Snowshoe - When Bubba was 2-5 months I worked from home full time and I had plenty of time for mini training lessons. I definitely used the changing directions technique. Now that I'm back at work, our walks need to combine exercise with training. Usually it is walking & training while getting to the large field where we play fetch. How can you get where you're going while also training?
    I guess I had it easy. We only walked at the most 7 minutes to get to the bush and then off leash. Maybe 10 minutes counting directions changes.
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  8. #8
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    It's not so much "this is good so I do it and this is bad so I don't", but sometimes they can't help it! It takes maturity and focus to not go after a leaf or want to say hi to the other dog. At seven months old, many puppies and young dogs do not have that ability to stop and think. Just like a small child, self-control does not come easy! Some dogs are relatively mature early on or they take their job of pleasing their person very seriously, but many do not. In that case, you have a few choices. You can manage it by using a prong or a halti or another type of collar or you can put into practice something like stopping and/or turning. I was at a seminar recently where the trainer stops abruptly and makes noise, like a really dramatic, stomping stop. If the dog is overly sensitive or fearful, I wouldn't do it, but it could work for many dogs. You have to be consistent for this to work, i.e., if the dog's shoulder gets to point A I will stop.

    It just takes time. Out of the two dogs I have now, one dog I had loose leash walking and have never used more than a flatbuckle collar by the time he was six months. The other one required some management in certain situations (crowded walks with lots of dogs) due to his excitement level and lack of self control until he was maybe two years old (I used a halti). They are all different. I've never used a prong on my own dogs, never owned one. I have used prongs on young adult foster dogs that came to me basically feral when it came to leash manners. When I fostered I never had a yard so I had no choice but long walks for exercise and bathroom breaks.

  9. #9
    Senior Dog zd262's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    It's not so much "this is good so I do it and this is bad so I don't", but sometimes they can't help it!
    You're definitely right. Bubba is still allll puppy. Like full wiggles, wants to be best friends with everyone.
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  10. #10
    Senior Dog zd262's Avatar
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    I checked out the prongs at petco yesterday because I was in the area. They were all very sharp at the ends. I've read that it's best to find ones that are smooth rounded because this provides the correct pressure without hurting your dog or irritating his skin. It's best to find a "high quality" prong collar. Anyone have a brand they've used before and would recommend?
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