When is abuse really abuse?

[Labradorks]

This is a sensitive subject.

I went to a drop in class on Sunday morning to train in a different building. One of the other class members had a 6-9 month old Aussie. This puppy was as soft as butter. Long story short, she yelled at him, she slapped his face several times when he didn't sit fast enough (he is slow because he is unsure), when he would not pick up the dumb bell she grabbed him by the scruff and pushed his face in it while it was on the ground (like old school potty training) after he slinked over to it and tried to avoid it, and when he escaped her to climb onto someone's lap to get away from her, she dragged him by the collar back to the spot and slammed him to the ground. We're talking "Mommy Dearest". I don't believe she was having a meltdown as my friend in that class who was also there that day and has been in this class with the woman for years confirmed this was the norm.

What is abuse in competition dog training, anyway? And when does the trainer need to step in, especially one that is also a judge? Does she have an obligation to at least have a discussion with this person? She acknowledged that this woman was "hard on her dogs" to me after class while she rolled her eyes. I don't know if she was embarrassed or if it meant, "well, what can you do?". I didn't know what to say as I was shocked. Do I have any responsibility in this just by being there and not saying anything? I think it's kinda nuts that in competition dog training people can do awful things to their dogs and no one gets in trouble unless they do it during an event and get turned in/caught. I'm not talking collar popping, e-collars or prong collars (unless used inappropriately) but slapping, stringing dogs up, etc. all in the name of something like a faster sit.

I love to train and spend time with my dog and seeing this just hurt my heart too much. I feel like I should tell her I won't be coming back because I can't stand to see someone being like that to their dog. I do this because it's fun and my dog loves it, but I can't watch that type of stuff nor do I want to condone it. I would want what I say to be impactful and not come across as simply not liking her type of training or thinking that my type of training is best. Yes, there were things that people were doing that I didn't agree with in the class but I expected that and I've gotten to the point where I really don't care. But this wasn't a type of training, it was abuse.

Thoughts?

[dxboon]

This happened in one of my puppy obedience classes with my eldest Lab (now 7). In my case, it was a woman with an ACD. Now, her dog was NOT soft at all. ACDs are well known to be independent thinkers and some can be bull-headed. She basically starting swinging her pup in a circle by the lead (all four feet off the ground, so imagine someone winding up to throw shotput or discus). The teacher hadn't arrived at class yet, so it was just a bunch of students hanging around. I didn't raise my voice, but just said, "Hey, maybe try doing xxx instead...I worry that your girl is going to get hurt." The owner didn't really react, but she didn't swing her puppy in class again. My guess is maybe she trains that way in private, but at least in class it was toned down.

[IRISHWISTLER]

If it looks like abuse, and smells like abuse, it is quite probably abuse. Most o' us with any degree of intelligence know it when we see it. To say nothing is to tolerate it. What's up with the instructor not assuming a clear position on the matter (her judgment perhaps clouded by not wanting to lose client $$$)? To clearly define abuse is perhaps difficult for some, I know it when I see it and will have absolutely no problems with hurting the feelings o'the responsible party.

Irishwhistler☘️

[POPTOP]

No way could I tolerate that continuing. Good gosh, DH would probably deck the woman. There are some who train with a firmer hand than I do but it is not abuse. What you described is abuse. Don't hesitate to speak up. It's not like you want to be friends with this person. Shame on the trainer who did not speak up.

Ok, maybe I need to calm down a little. How about asking her if you could handle her dog for a little bit and show her a gentler way. Bet after gaining the dog's confidence, you'll get a lot further than she does.

[janedoe]

Yeah. Not only would I not want to be around it but I wouldn't want my dogs around it either. Especially Zo. She's very sensitive. Do tell your trainer why you're not coming back if you decide not to return. She needs to know. The situation won't change or be censored unless there are consequences. Heck. At this point in my life, I'd film her and post it. That's just me though. I stopped caring about what other people think a few years ago.

[SunDance]

Yeah. Not only would I not want to be around it but I wouldn't want my dogs around it either. Especially Zo. She's very sensitive. Do tell your trainer why you're not coming back if you decide not to return. She needs to know. The situation won't change or be censored unless there are consequences. Heck. At this point in my life, I'd film her and post it. That's just me though. I stopped caring about what other people think a few years ago.

This. What you described sounds to me like abuse. If she were out in public (i.e., not a class situation), I'd speak up. In the classroom, it's the responsibility of the trainer. Speaking to the trainer is the way to go, IMO. Depending on what the trainer replied, I may or may not go back...it bothers me that it didn't bother her to begin with.

[labsnewfy]

I would notify your local animal control and have them pop in on a training exercise to catch her in the act and deal with her since the trainer is not. Agree with IRISHWHISTLER completely if it doesn't feel right it is abuse. Since when is slamming a puppy to the floor ok not to mention all the other things that she was doing to that sweet little baby shame on all those that watched and did nothing.

Our trainer told us about a guy in one of her training classes that put his foot on his dogs butt to get him to sit and our trainer jumped him for that, I can only imagine what she would have done if she had seen this going on.

[Labradorks]

That's for confirming everyone, that this was not OK.

You see a lot of stuff in competition dog sports and it's hard to determine what is acceptable and what is not, regardless of your position on training styles or methods. People do some awful stuff but are rarely, if ever, turned in and usually just at events, which is such a small fraction of where they spend their time and work with their dogs. If people see that a trainer is doing well, they will go to them and they will do what they trainer says, all in the name of winning. That said, the trainers in the area who are known for being hard on dogs have very few successful students, even if they are successful themselves, while the trainers who do not train this way are successful themselves and have successful students. I think a lot of these students focus on the trainer's success and not on the success of the people they work with. Anyway, what this woman was doing is not the worse I've heard of in our community, even among trainers and seminar trainers, but it is the worse I've seen in person.

I did ask my friend how she could sit there and watch this woman do this to her dogs week after week for years. She told me that her other dog was not soft so it didn't seem so bad and that this woman was "just like this" and she takes care of her dogs really well, even spending tens of thousands on them for vet bills. She also hinted at the fact that the woman was abused herself as a child, which makes a lot of sense. I have empathy for her to some degree, but the trainer needs to stand up for this dog.

[Annette47]

From your description, it does sound like abuse and yes, the trainer should absolutely have stepped in.

That said, you claim to see an awful lot of what you term “abuse” by competition trainers, which is just not my experience. Sure, I’ve seen a few bad things, but nowhere near at the frequency you complain of, so that leads me to think that either things are different in your part of the country, or that your perceptions of what is occurring is different that how I might have seen the same thing. The language you use is quite inflammatory and paints a strong picture, but again, is that the same picture that people without your particular bias against physical corrections would see? For example, what you describe for the dumbbell, could easily have been a dog being ear pinched to the dumbbell after a refusal to fetch ... a correction that if done correctly (and only to a dog that knew what was requested of it yet still refused) I don’t really have a problem with, and have used on rare occasions. Mostly the only correction my dogs need is a firm “No, that’s wrong” so it’s not that I rely on physical corrections often, but I don’t rule them out to the extent that you do.

I’m not trying to say that what you saw was okay - clearly if it was as as bad as you describe, it’s not. It’s just that you have repeatedly on this forum accused competition trainers of being “abusive” at a rate that just doesn’t match up to what I’ve experienced and seen, which leads me to question the accuracy of your interpretations.

[SunDance]

That's for confirming everyone, that this was not OK.

You see a lot of stuff in competition dog sports and it's hard to determine what is acceptable and what is not, regardless of your position on training styles or methods. People do some awful stuff but are rarely, if ever, turned in and usually just at events, which is such a small fraction of where they spend their time and work with their dogs. If people see that a trainer is doing well, they will go to them and they will do what they trainer says, all in the name of winning. That said, the trainers in the area who are known for being hard on dogs have very few successful students, even if they are successful themselves, while the trainers who do not train this way are successful themselves and have successful students. I think a lot of these students focus on the trainer's success and not on the success of the people they work with. Anyway, what this woman was doing is not the worse I've heard of in our community, even among trainers and seminar trainers, but it is the worse I've seen in person.

I did ask my friend how she could sit there and watch this woman do this to her dogs week after week for years. She told me that her other dog was not soft so it didn't seem so bad and that this woman was "just like this" and she takes care of her dogs really well, even spending tens of thousands on them for vet bills. She also hinted at the fact that the woman was abused herself as a child, which makes a lot of sense. I have empathy for her to some degree, but the trainer needs to stand up for this dog.

I wonder how much of the vet necessity was a result of the way she treats them. Stress is a killer.