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  1. #1
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    Will breeders modify legs in their liters?

    I was thinking about how nowadays breeders have certain standards for their liters. Often there are certificates of excellent hips and eyes lineage. After learning how the angle of the tibia is actually a genetic predisposition, will breeders start to look at starting lineage for (not sure what to call it) good knees? Could be interesting to see some breeder responses.... I am sure breeding is a tricky thing... And is this even a futuristic thing? Anyone know of this already included in breeding programs?

  2. #2
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    If it is actually verified (as opposed to just hypothesized) that the angle of the tibia is a) inherited and b)responsible for knee problems (fortunately we haven’t had knee problems here, so I’m not completely familiar with the literature on that) then it would be hoped people would try to avoid producing it. It’s not that easy though - you’d need a way of screening for it (I would think x-rays would work) but also a way of determining at what point it is a problem. I’m guessing there is a wide variety of tibia angles so you’d need some way of saying “this one is a problem” and “this one is ok”, which is essentially what they try to do with hips using either the OFA grading system (subjective) and the PennHip system (more objective but you still need to figure out what numbers are good/bad). The problem with determining that, is it is most likely a combination of tibia angle, other structural issues, and tons of environmental factors so to isolate the exact effects of the bone structure wouldn’t be easy.

    I think that if in the future, a system is developed that can grade knees, then people would absolutely try to avoid producing cruciate-tear prone dogs. It’s a long way off though.
    Annette

    Cookie (HIT HC Jamrah's Legally Blonde, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015
    Sassy (HIT Jamrah's Blonde Ambition, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015

    Chloe (HIT HC OTCH Windsong's Femme Fatale, UDX4, OM6, RE) 6/7/2009

    And remembering:

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  3. #3
    Chief Pooper Scooper JenC's Avatar
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    I haven't come across proof that it IS hereditary. I know lots of folks say that fixing the dog early is directly related whether a dog blows out their knees or not. But my only dog to need TPLOs was intact.

  4. #4
    Senior Dog dxboon's Avatar
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    A good breeder is studying pedigrees, looking at the dogs they are breeding, looking at how dogs from those pedigrees bred together have turned out, looking at the documented genetic/orthopedic testing history for dogs in the pedigrees, and so on. The issue I think OP may be alluding to is proper turn of stifle? Not sure based on their post. Turn of stifle is an issue in the breed, but it's not something you can test for. I think breeding is part science, part art, with some luck (or lack therof) thrown in for good measure. You can breed to try to correct an issue in your next generation and have other things turn up.

    I think anyone who is interested in conformation, and breeding, should try to find a good mentor in their breed through joining a Lab club and participating in those types of organizations. One of my mentors has been in Goldens and Labs since the 70s, and I learn a ton from her at litter evaluations and just general chatting about issues in the breed.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by dxboon View Post
    The issue I think OP may be alluding to is proper turn of stifle? Not sure based on their post.
    I don’t think it’s turn of stifle. The purpose of a TPLO is to change the angle of the tibia where it meets the femur, as problems in this area is thought to be behind the majority of cruciate tears. I don’t know that it’s something you can see from the outside of the dog as I suspect it would be something fairly subtle.

    To Jen’s point, I have seen it hypothesized (https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs...rnalCode=javma), but as I said in my original post that I don’t know that it has been proven to be the main factor yet. As I said though, my knowledge of cruciate issues is somewhat superficial, having thankfully not had any problems here. Of course, all of my dogs have been related to each other, so if it is genetic, that could explain why
    Annette

    Cookie (HIT HC Jamrah's Legally Blonde, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015
    Sassy (HIT Jamrah's Blonde Ambition, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015

    Chloe (HIT HC OTCH Windsong's Femme Fatale, UDX4, OM6, RE) 6/7/2009

    And remembering:

    Scully (HC Coventry's Truth Is Out There, UD, TD, RN) 4/14/1996 - 6/30/2011
    Mulder (Coventry's I Want To Believe, UD, RN, WC) 5/26/1999 - 4/22/2015

    And our foster Jolie (Windsong's Genuine Risk, CDX) 5/26/1999 - 3/16/2014

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  7. #6
    Senior Dog Tanya's Avatar
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    I assume you mean the main cause of CCL tares? Yes the angle of the tibial (tibial plateau) can cause more "impact" on the CCL leading to it taring but I haven't heard of any proof it is hereditary nor a way to "test" parents if it is to see what they will produce. it is genetic but not necessarily "

  8. #7
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    Some pretty interesting points of views... I agree it is something only an x-ray would tell you what is going on... I only ask because Remy has had the TPLO due to the angle, not really do to any specific injury (the opposing leg has the same angle so time will tell). The vet did mention this could be a hereditary thing... which is how the questions started rolling in my head. But yeah, I am sure breeding is incredibly scientific and a little luck too...

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanya View Post
    I assume you mean the main cause of CCL tares? Yes the angle of the tibial (tibial plateau) can cause more "impact" on the CCL leading to it taring but I haven't heard of any proof it is hereditary nor a way to "test" parents if it is to see what they will produce. it is genetic but not necessarily "
    No I was more questioning the tibial plateau.

  10. #9
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    It sure seems to run in lines, so I think it's a prudent question to ask when looking at litters. I personally have been asked that question a LOT more lately! Anne
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  11. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to windycanyon For This Useful Post:

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