Rally-O Question

[Tanya]

During initial training, how do you tackle incorrect heals (crooked sits, totally out of position heels)?

- if a crooked sit is done at a station do I correct the sit (repeat the heel command) OR do I start over so they get it all right from the beginning? I am thinking starting over is better VS correcting?
- what if the dog gets totally out of heel position say during the "slow" or "fast" stations?

thanks!

[Snowshoe]

I just didn't reward till it was correct. To help get those sits straight I used the Do-whacka- stick. I love that stick, my heeling stick. Do it right or I'll whack you. LOL, love telling people that so I can see the look on their faces.

You know I'm kidding.

I learned it in a long, long ago obedience class. Put the stick on the floor, sit beside it. With a visual and physical help in the position they soon learned the position without the stick. A tape line or long heavy cord on the floor can help with heeling. We started heeling along the wall. I used the stick for drop on recall as well, sit at a distance too. Start them dropping or sitting at the stick, leave the stick, you move back. Pretty soon they understood the distance part then I removed the stick.

And I learned to position my treat well to the left so the dog anticipated it coming at her/him in a line which had them in a straight heel.

[Tanya]

so I should be rewarding every time she does it right? (treat or just praise)? I guess that's where I am confused as I haven't really been rewarding anymore...reward if she does it rigth the first time. If she needs a repeat command then minor/low value reward (I think susan garrett makes those neutral voice reward - neutra "good" then practice again and praise high valu when they do it right).

haha I need a do-whacka-stick

It took a very long time to get her to sit NEAR me (she sat wide). Acutally teaching her to sit in a heel took months haha. well last week she started sitting against me and leaning on me. LOL! ok, we went to far the other way She sometimes will go from that leaning sit and fall to the ground belly up and look up at me Oh PenPen. You big goof.

[Snowshoe]

For this a treat will help her to align herself correctly. In our classes most dogs sat on an angle, bum out away from handler, head in towards handler. Holding the treat to the left got them straight. As a matter of fact I don't think any dogs sat angled the other way, they all wanted their head close to where the treat was coming from.

Another trick I saw our teacher show some was to wrap the leash around the dog's bum so it couldn't swing out. We didn't have to do that one, maybe someone else will come along with the way to wrap the leash. I do remember a few didn't like this a first and did some bouncing around to avoid the touch of the leash behind them where they couldn't see it but after a few times they settled down.

You can use the heeling stick this way too, just to give a very slight pressure on the side that's swinging out but it's harder to hold the leash, use the stick this way and treat when the position is correct, you'd pretty well have to just praise. Oh, unless you're one of those good treat spitters but giving the treat by hand is better than spitting for this kind of positioning. Spitting will get some dogs angling toward your face, probably just the very thing that is the problem.

[Annette47]

I usually address incorrect behavior the instant it happens ... whether I would repeat the station in training would depend on just how bad it was. If it was just slightly off, I would probably fix and move on, but if it was really incorrect, I would repeat. Part of this also depends on how competitive you plan on being with her - if the goal is just to get the title, then you can put up with more "sloppiness" than if the goal is to get really good scores. Either way, at this stage of her training you should be at least always be praising for correct behaviors, perhaps with the occasional treat thrown in to keep her interested. Weaning off of praise and rewards too easily is a common problem in Obedience work.

As for heeling and sitting butt out, Chloe used to have this problem. One thing that helped was to have two leashes on her. One normal one, the other running around behind my legs into my right hand. As we would come to a halt, I would put gentle forward tension on the one in my right hand. Not sure exactly why that helps them bring their rears in, but it does.

[Scoutpout]

the CKC rulebook specifically states that perfect heel position is not required between stations - that being said, you are supposed to be a team, and a decent heel between stations conveys that impression, plus it helps set the dog up for your commands as you get to the next station.

If it's a stationary station, as you approach the sign, and get ready to command the Sit, be prepared to use whichever of the above methods needed to get Penny to sit the way you want her to. don't let her butt hit the floor unless it's where you want it. When it does correctly, praise her.

I don't look at the sign/station as a "whole" but rather as its individual components. Think of sign #45, Halt, Down, Sit, which is really a halt with automatic Sit, Down, Sit. Penny already knows Sit and Down. So, As you approach the sign, you get Penny's attention, and command a Sit as you halt. You want her in a nice straight sit in heel position. Use the opportunity as she's starting to sit, to make sure she is doing it where you want and how you want, correct her by guiding, luring, leash behind you back, whatever method you use, before she plants her butt in an incorrect position. Also a good opportunity for praise/reward when she sits correctly. Then, to her, another command, which is Down from the Sit position. Again, you want to have her doing a nice straight parallel-to-you down. Go back to basics for getting a straight down by guiding her nose if your need to, watch out for the common curling in front. I find keeping my hand further away from my body and more in line with the snout helps prevent the curling. Again, don't let her do it incorrectly, stop before she's down wrong, and get her to do it right. Praise. And then the last one, push up into a sit without standing up. Again, back to basics, with an exaggerated signal to begin till she starts to associate the command with what you are asking for. And then onwards to the next station.
So to Penny, you've done 3 individual exercises there. This early on in training, getting thru 2 of those exercises, then breaking it off because you don't like how the down went,.and approaching the sign again, doesnt solve the problem with the down. You'll find most of the signs can be broken down into their individual components, and you and Penny can work on the individual components to get each part of the whole, the way you want it. When you are combining them at the sign, correct AND praise each component, as its happening.
Hope that helps

[Labradorks]

I work on straight sits and heeling outside of rally quite a bit. Most exercises I work on individually and then once a month, give or take these days, I put them together in the rally ring during a drop-in class.

For a dog that habitually has a crooked sit, you should make sure you're treating her in the correct position and that means holding your treat hand out, away from you, so the dog doesn't sit with the rump swung out. If you align the head just right with the treat, you'll get a straight sit. Once your dog understands that she's supposed to sit straight, then you can correct by asking her to do it again when she sits crooked.

As for the heeling, it's the hardest part. Depending on your goals, you can work on heeling FOREVER. It takes years for most dogs to have a great heel. It's so hard! And, there are many ways to train for it. It depends on your goals. If you're doing it for fun or want to get an RN title, you can simply have your dog next to you without pulling on the leash or being pulled. In rally, especially novice, you can pretty much do anything but lure your dog during the heeling and you do get points off for the tight leash. I have a friend with a Lab who shows rally and often wins and gets HIT even though her dog's heel is just walking next to her, sometimes a little bit of a lag. She hasn't been able to get any obedience titles because of the heel.

Also, make sure that before you stop or slow or get to an exercise you cue your dog by slowing down and preparing them. Your transitions will be much better this way and your sits will be straighter if your dog has time to prepare.

Remember, in rally you can talk a lot. They actually encourage it!

I still treat my dogs when practicing and never phase them out. Sometimes the reward is food, sometimes a game, sometimes a special toy. Just depends on his mood that day. There's a million ways to do it and it depends on your dog and what motivates her, and whether or not she will work without you having treats on you. I've been having amazing success lately with Linus in making all training a fun game and learning different ways to praise him without food that we can do in a ring for praise as well as stress relief (for both of us).

[Tanya]

hmm...ok it sounds based on all your advice that I have phased out treats wayy too early. Noted and will try something with treats during training. She does the basics but sometimes swing out too far (I know they are generous with their heel but sometime's she's really wide).

We work on sits and downs on heels a lot as they have been issues. the harder one now is she can do stand but gets out of position very easily so lots of treats there as it's new.

She is getting there. Class of course presents many more distractions so things are not alwasy great there haha. But that is part of the learning game. And the super long courses each class are hard but I am seeing imrpovemvent. I never really had her heel more than 20-30 seconds so getting thru a full course is pretty demanding. I may need to go slower and reward at more stations for now. Again it sounds like I am phasing out treats much too early in teh game

I do talk to her a lot haha. I got used to that with rocky. Hand signals and voice, i'm a one man show

thanks everyone It's done penny and I good to get into a more controls type of training. while we did basic obedience and did the susan garrett program, we otherwise did more crazy energetic stuff like agility and dock diving.

[Tanya]

oh the bad heeling is when we do slow she sorta stands sideways and we go so slow she ends up almost stopping haha. work in progress

[Scoutpout]

when you're doing the Slow sign, thats when she swings out and almost does half-passes or stops or anticipates a halt/sit so she;s about to plant her butt? try the treating with the slow heeling, that kind of keeps their nose up and forward. I actually use a different command when we;re doing the Slow sign, i keep talking to him "with me, with me"

And I forgot to say before, break down the signs into their individual components, and work on those individual components till Penny understands each one, before combining them. for example, the Stand. its not always from a sit, it can be moving and halt in a Stand, so the toughest part is getting Penny to associate Stand with being on all four paws and not moving. Kind of like how some people teach their dog that Heel isn't walking beside your handler, its actually a physical spot to be in relative to your handler, no matter what kind of crazy-a**ed thing your handler is doing (walking, running, turning in circles).

I'm in-between classes right now, and find we both miss it, a lot!