When To Give a Time Out When Playing w/ Other Young Dogs?

[happy_blackbird]

Happy Friday, everyone! Ellie and I had an interesting play date today and I wanted to ask everyone about their experience with this kind of puppy behavior.

Belly is just a few days shy of six months now. She is an intensely social little girl, always wanting to meet everyone everywhere we go (two legs are great, four are even better). Today we were invited to play at another 6 month old yellow labs house for the first time and after a few minutes sniffing through the gate, it was Go Time! Ellie plays very, very hard and looks like a grizzly bear most of the time, up on her hind legs, mouth open, teeth gnashing, very vocal. Her body language is relaxed and her tail is down and she is certainly playing, not fighting, but it is extremely rough looking (much more so than our last field lab) and very mouthy. She has a few puppy friends with whom she is very well matched in temperament, but it was very clear to me today that after twenty minutes of hard play, the other little girl was overwhelmed (running behind my legs, lying down under the kitchen table, running away from Ellie). I wanted to separate them and give them a time out, but the other puppy's caregiver said I was over managing them and to let them go at it. Even when things got a little out of hand and Ellie had backed the little girl into a corner and she defended herself, the woman thought this was ok. When she stepped away to deal with something else, I separated the puppies and made them lie down apart and take a time out. Ellie barked at the other girl out of sheer frustration as if to say, "Aaahhahhhh!!!! Play with me!" (but she did stay in her "down") She looked, quite honestly, totally crazed.

It finally dawned on me to pull the rope toy out of my bag and they played tug of war for about a half hour before we took them together on a hike (they were wonderful together outside, absolutely inseparable on the trail).

Though Ellie does sometimes get overly excited by being around other dogs (yesterday she jumped over a doberman on the trail, she was so excited to see him, even though I had made her sit and wait for him to pass), today was the first day I've seen this kind of dominant, non-stop harassment of another dog (the other little girl rolled over at one point and instead of stopping to sniff her, Ellie pounced on her and continued to nip at her face). I did not like it. We've learned to mitigate some of Ellie's other over-excited behaviors with well timed, pre-emptive "time outs", but I don't know how to handle her when another dog is involved (and another dog owner). I don't want Ellie to grow into a bully and I don't want her to be injured by an adult dog with whom she behaves this way. Does anyone have experience with this kind of over excited behavior with other dogs? How do I nip this while still encouraging proper socialization?

[Moby and Barley's Mom]

I look forward to the answers of other folks because she plays just like my 9 month old, Barley. He does this constantly with my 13 1/2 year old lab who sometimes is game and sometimes is not and then I try to redirect. I have a friend who has a five year old female dalmation mix and she is dominate over Barley and does not tolerate his behavior yet he is one of the few dogs she will play with. I do often think that they sort of work it out among themselves but I really understand your predicament as Barley seems to roughshod over almost every single dog he meets and it is hard for me to tell when to get him to back off. I don't ever really think of him as a bully, however. Just a super over eager dorky puppy.

[Meeps83]

When one puppy is overwhelmed ABSOLUTELY give them a break. Maverick gets many breaks because he doesn't read other dogs body language well and just keeps going, much like both of your dogs. It gives the other dogs a chance to recollect themselves and gives the "Happy Player" a chance to calm down. The break is never long, but enough for each dog to recollect themselves.

In fact, breaks are a regular part of our classes. We never play for more than maybe 2 minutes without a scheduled break for each dog.

Also keep an eye on both dogs body language during play. They will usually send some kind of clue that younger dogs especially don't pick up on. It is most important to make sure that both dogs are comfortable and having a good time. It IS NOT ok to make a puppy play when she is nervous or scared. Shame on that caregiver

[Snowshoe]

I think you should do what's best for YOUR puppy and separate even though the other puppy's caregiver said it was fine. Maybe the other puppy needs a bit of learning to stand up for herself but your puppy is at the same time learning to get away with bullying and you don't want that. I wonder if these two puppies are a good match for each other?

[LucyTudeOn4Feet]

I'm thinking that this is not a good match. My Lucy was like the other pup, always getting beat up on by the rougher playing dogs, but I was not like your friend, just letting the other dogs go at it with her. If it happened at a dog park, that kind of behavior can egg other dogs on, and can escalate.
I think you are doing right to intervene and force breaks. You may have to always continue to do so, or over time your pup may outgrow it some. I doubt if it's something you're going to change overnight.
But stay the course, and continue working on the control of your dog. If she learns that listening to Mom and taking a breather doesn't mean that play time is over, she will learn it's ok to focus attention elsewhere momentarily.

[Labradorks]

The other puppy's owner should have protected her dog, definitely. And, timeouts every few minutes is normal for puppies.

My Sam was like that as a pup and he was huge by 6 months. I would not have him playing with puppies. I have a lot of friends with dogs and the best match for him were adult females. I found that the females would play with him but fairly and firmly put him in his place if he overstepped his boundaries. It worked really well and he learned not to be such a bear. It took time, however, probably until he was about three, to routinely not be psycho while playing.

I also found that instead of static playdates where you just stand in a yard or in a home, hikes and off-leash walks worked better and the play was often not as rough.

[Tanya]

a lot of people will say "oh it's fine" when their dog is clearly NOT fine. it's frustrating. One cue they teach us is to hold back the instigator and let the other dog free - if they avoid the other dog that means they don't want to play and the dogs should be separated. but honestly it was clear the other dog was TRYING to do that and was being forced to continue the play. it's not fair to the other dog to "force" the interaction on them - because it forces them to up the anti and then they get PUNISHED for giving increasingly high punishments to the instigator (which is TOTALLY legit and allowed and should be encouraged). I fell bad for the puppy and their owner really needs to brush up on dogs. Oh and this is not at all to say your dog was being bad or anything. Even if the play is "appropriate" if one dog doesn't want to participate they shouldn't be forced to (or forced to escalate the communication from avoidance, to growling to full on correction)

I agree with the above. I like Meeps forced breaks every few minutes even when well matched. It works on training as well as you can call them and give a real life reward - release into play again. it also brings down the play because even totally innocent play can become "too much" and escalate especially with young high energy pups.

and yes static play tends to escalate more than if you are moving (thus dog parks that are just "big fenced yard" can be more problematic than a huge park where owners walk and move around with their dog).

[happy_blackbird]

I really appreciate all of your posts and they reinforce my feelings on the subject of puppy play (don't even get my started on dog parks). We did 2-3 puppy socials a week till Ellie aged out of them at 18 weeks old and felt that the best run socials were where the puppies were closely watched for over-excitement (that's where we learned to give Ellie time-outs and redirect her energies with short training sessions). Ellie is really great with older, geriatric dogs. After a quick sniff, she'll stand near them calmly and not harass them to play in the slightest. She is also great with adult dogs who will play with her for a few minutes and then let her know they have had enough. She gets that cue and will move on to sniffing around. Young dogs, however, push a totally different button in her developing brain. I think you're right, Labradorks. Puppies are not a good play match for Ellie.

This morning we walked Ellie three miles, went to puppy class, then picked up a different 6 month old dog who will be staying with us for the next three days. Ellie, again, was visibly over excited, even though I know she was also exhausted (from within her crate in the back of the minivan, Ellie barked nonstop at Kahlo for most of the way home). Kahlo plays just as hard as Ellie does, but these two will escalate into a scrap if I don't monitor them carefully (when I pull Ellie off Kahlo, Kahlo comes right back at her, so they both have to be given a time out frequently). My goal till Kahlo is picked up on Tuesday is to walk the hell out of them and minimize out of control play.

At about three years old, our last girl was attacked by a rescue dog whose caregiver did not have an understanding yet of her particular behavioral issues. After that, Stella never showed any interest in being around other dogs again (such a sad thing to see in a lab). I don't want to see that happen to Ellie but I also don't want her to turn into that pain in the butt, uncontrollable dog that no one wants to be around.