I HATE the hold!

[Labradorks]

Just have to vent...

I really hate teaching the hold command. It's probably the most frustrating command I've ever had to teach, to date.

My trainer says we're doing well with it, so that's all I can go by. It doesn't feel like it's going well to me because it's such a slow process.

Janice Gunn recently advertised a brand new DVD on teaching the hold with a clicker. It was $10 off and I ordered it. Just waiting for it to arrive. I don't know for certain that I will use her method, but I need to see the progress with my own eyes, of a dog learning the hold command in order to teach it.

My trainer is a former software engineer so has that type of mind and understands I need to see or hear the whole story before I begin. Sometimes when we train, for example the figure 8s, I am the dog and she is the handler. It's amazing how things can click when you understand it from the dog's point of view. For some reason I am not getting the hold, therefore, I don't feel confident teaching it to my dog. I'm hoping I can get that from the DVD. It's worth a shot.

When I have taught Linus the hold, I am bringing cupcakes to class!

[TuMicks]

I want to put this on the table because fetch is such a fundamental issue in my sport (Hunt Tests). Most of us do force fetching. (I will pause at this point for readers to get over their alarm. The term has such a negative connotation. Moreover, it is usually mischaracterized and needlessly maligned by people who have never done it or seen it done well.)

Suffice it to say, the dogs you see at HT's and FT's are passionate about and live for their retrieves. Their enthusiasm to retrieve is utterly amazing as it MUST be because they are called upon to drive out 200-400 yards, go over or through any obstacle, swim across any expanse of water, angle up hills and across ditches, fight the wind... to pick up the bird with alacrity and style and deliver it to hand in the same fashion... and then do it again and again until 4-5 birds have been brought back to their handlers. This set of behaviors and the drive it takes to accomplish them are predicated upon the foundation of the force fetch. It doesn't diminish enthusiasm it builds it.

Labradork... you and your dog will get this. You know the old proverb about how to eat an elephant... one bite at a time. But, if for any reason you find you are hitting a brick wall and nothing works, find a hunting retriever club in your area and meet some of the folks there. They might be able to help you over the hump. (And while you're with them, take the opportunity to see them work their dogs. It can be truly amazing.)

[Labradorks]

I want to put this on the table because fetch is such a fundamental issue in my sport (Hunt Tests). Most of us do force fetching. (I will pause at this point for readers to get over their alarm. The term has such a negative connotation. Moreover, it is usually mischaracterized and needlessly maligned by people who have never done it or seen it done well.)

Suffice it to say, the dogs you see at HT's and FT's are passionate about and live for their retrieves. Their enthusiasm to retrieve is utterly amazing as it MUST be because they are called upon to drive out 200-400 yards, go over or through any obstacle, swim across any expanse of water, angle up hills and across ditches, fight the wind... to pick up the bird with alacrity and style and deliver it to hand in the same fashion... and then do it again and again until 4-5 birds have been brought back to their handlers. This set of behaviors and the drive it takes to accomplish them are predicated upon the foundation of the force fetch. It doesn't diminish enthusiasm it builds it.

Labradork... you and your dog will get this. You know the old proverb about how to eat an elephant... one bite at a time. But, if for any reason you find you are hitting a brick wall and nothing works, find a hunting retriever club in your area and meet some of the folks there. They might be able to help you over the hump. (And while you're with them, take the opportunity to see them work their dogs. It can be truly amazing.)

We started field training over the summer, so I am familiar, not experienced. I understand that the forced fetch does not have to be a bad thing, but it's just not something I want to do. I found a trainer that does not suggest this tool for every dog (same with the e-collar). If I get to a point where it is my only hope, then so be it, but I honestly don't think I will get there nor do I feel like every dog needs to be trained using either of these tools. Most of the time I think they are an unnecessary short-cut in training. My pup is just 18 months and we are far from being required to hold anything, so I know I have time both with articles and birds. I don't know how a forced fetch would create enthusiasm? If my dog had any more enthusiasm about retrieving for me, he'd POP!

I do the field stuff because he absolutely LOVES it. He loves everything, but in the field he comes alive. He's not a field Lab, he was bred for conformation, and has just two WCs in his pedigree, so it was really interesting to see this part of him evolve. The thing about such a vast (for his age) obedience background before field training, is that it makes it all so easy (relatively, of course). Being quiet behind the blind, heeling to the line, and being steady at the line are all good to go, even when using live flyers. He's not perfect, but I don't have half of the issues that people slap an e-collar on their dogs for, and I believe it's because I have taken the time to train him. Field work is getting popular with the obedience crowd and I'm seeing dogs as old as ten with obedience titles that have never touched a bird, after a few months of working with them, being ready for their JH -- no forced fetch, no e-collar. And they are very enthusiastic!

I have been to hunt club events and while I will go again to get some real-world practice before our tests, I'm not looking forward to it. Most of the dogs I have seen at these events are intimidated into minding. I've seen them getting hit and that seems to be the norm. Yelling is common. They are stressed, whale-eyed, slinking around, ears down, tail down, scared, and certainly not having fun. They do want the bird, that's for sure, but you can awaken that drive in a Lab fairly easily. And, from experience, the only kind of advice they have is e-collar and forced-fetch. Oh, and telling me my dog is fat.

I do think we'll get it and it'll all be a thing of the past. It's much like the precision heeling in that it takes a lot of time, energy, patience, and practice, but not too much! And there are many ways to teach it and sometimes you have to go back several steps or even try over with a different way in order to get ahead. We'll get there!

[TuMicks]

Hey Labradorks... so much of what you say is so true. We (Fireball and me) had a major breakthrough-hallelujah training day today, mostly because we've been working extensively on basic obedience at the house. So obedience is ALWAYS good. Especially (for this dog) exacting standards on heel position.

I do use the e-collar. But my dogs dance around and get crazy ("Oh, boy!!! Birds! Birds! Birds!") when they see getting the collars out. They have only positive associations with it. On the OTHER hand... the WORST thing you can do to Fireball is tell her NO and heel her off line and back to the truck. It devastates her.

So why the breakthrough today? Was it with a heeling stick? (Though I do carry one.) Was it with the e-collar? None of that. It was done with high obedience standards at home. (Duh!!! why did I wait so long) You wiggle... you wait. You whine... you wait. You step ahead of me... I step back. Keep your toenails behind my shoelaces. Nothing else works.

If you'd been there today, you would have seen what looked like a slinky, anxious dog. She was scared to DEATH she wouldn't get her bird!!! The conflict and angst was in her own head. She probably was a little wall-eyed, glancing at me the whole way, desperately afraid we would go back to the truck. But bam! We get to the line, her head is up, tail wagging.

It was all good.

[Woodrow_Woodchuck]

I have to laugh at this comment:

If my dog had any more enthusiasm about retrieving for me, he'd POP!

I believe that kind of drive can not be trained into a lab, they just have to have it. I'll have to read up on 'forced retrieve', I never heard of it. Your comment about labs looking sad or scared really took me back!

Yelling is common. They are stressed, whale-eyed, slinking around, ears down, tail down, scared, and certainly not having fun.

I "Yell" at Sunshine all the time. Not commands, it is a simple "YO!" to get her attention. If I do not let out a YO, she will not pay attention to me unless she is off the retrieve, then she looks to me for direction. I can then give her hand commands and she will follow. Even inside, on leash at someplace like Petsmart, I will have to give her a loud YO. She then STOPS and l@@ks at me for a direction. And yes, I get a lot of looks from folks thinking I always yell at my overactive lab. Any nearby little designer dogs riding in the shopping cart will cringe when I let out a YO. Sunshine will just stop and turn, ears at attention, tail up... "WHAT WHAT WHAT???" LOL!

She has never seemed intimidated in the field. Even if I tell her "No no no, I meant THIS!" She is all at attention listening and gives me the "OK!!! GOT IT!!" ZOOM!!! If she ever showed signs like above, I would either change my techniques or change what her job was.

Back OT... Hold is one we have a major issue with. Her energy and drive are just too strong to make her wait. We are still working on it though but after three years, she is wearing me out. At this point, she could never work a blind, not going to happen. If we are in the field, she NEEDS action. If she has to sit/wait for more than a few seconds, her front feet are jittery and pumping up and down, she drools, gets way to anxious... I'm sure I could command/yell her into submission, but then I end up with what you describe above. A lab that lost her confidence and is scared of doing the wrong thing. I went another direction and worked with what I had. I CAN control her anxiety. It is still a work in progress but she can control herself now, for a limited time. She still has the drive and energy I have come to love, without intimidation or fear.

Sure, she is not what I would like at this point. But what can I do? She is a good girl and definitely knows her job, her enthusiasm is just a bit too much. LOL! I'll have to work with what I was given.

[TuMicks]

So I gather from your post that Sunshine is your hunting dog?

If you had it to do over again, would you want a dog that can remember where multiple birds dropped, or go out for one she didn't see and let you handle her to it? Would you, with your next dog try to teach it to stop on a whistle?

Just curious because my son-in-law is an AVID hunter and his retriever doesn't handle. But his dog is really birdy and my son-in-law is just fine with what he has.

[Snowshoe]

Did you already teach TAKE and most important GIVE?

[Labradorks]

Did you already teach TAKE and most important GIVE?

Yeah. He's known both of those for a really long time.

My original trainer started to teach the hold, but I could see right away that it wasn't working for us, so I discontinued it, dropped it all together. I somewhat recently picked it back up with the new trainer.

Good new though... I got my DVD today! I know what I'm doing tonight.

[Snowshoe]

I did clicker training hold with Oban. A person on the clicker internet advisory was helping me. I even videoed for her. I thought it was too slow for Oban. Oh no, she said, slow was key. I ditched it and sped it up and he was so much better. It WAS too slow for him. Mind you, our needs for rally were not the same as for field training. Can you say who did the DVD?

[Woodrow_Woodchuck]

So I gather from your post that Sunshine is your hunting dog?

If you had it to do over again, would you want a dog that can remember where multiple birds dropped, or go out for one she didn't see and let you handle her to it? Would you, with your next dog try to teach it to stop on a whistle?

Just curious because my son-in-law is an AVID hunter and his retriever doesn't handle. But his dog is really birdy and my son-in-law is just fine with what he has.

Optimally, having her wait until I released her to go get them. That way she could see each one fall and know about where they were. Actuality... If I hit one I am doing good. My first lab made me laugh. If she flushed birds, heard a couple shots and saw nothing fall, she would just sit and give me the evil eye.

I would rather be able to 'handle' or control her than have her just run willy nilly thinking she knows where a retrieve is. Sunshine is great at following directions! I never meant to insinuate otherwise. The only time she is too focused is if she see's the retrieve and is going for it, there is no calling her off at that point.

Sending her out for a blind retrieve is important to me. I can tell her what I am looking for, even if she has no idea what it is, point and give her a "GO!" I have to give a "YO !" each time I want her to change direction. If she knows the item, I can give a "Right there somewhere" which lets her know to start circling. If she has no idea (like getting a loose bobber floating on the lake) I tell her "Right there!" and she will grab the nearest thing and bring it back.

To be clear, being able to handle her is more important to me.