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Thread: Steady!

  1. #1
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Steady!

    15 month old. FC/AFC sire and dam. Ate up with talent. A black ball of fire (or as they say in East TN... "Bahl-uh-FAR". 5 weeks ago, she was breaking on blinds. Now she's working really well on line when we're doing blinds.

    But OMG. If there are feathers out there and gunfire... she practically has convulsions on line. When she's creeping out like a wild-thing, quivering, happy-feet, whining loudly... I pressure her on "heel". But have ended up putting her back on the truck since she is not under control.

    Suggestions?

  2. #2
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    I taught my pup stay and proofed it well, then didn't start him on birds until he was about a year old. So, he knows he's not allowed to look, sniff, move, whine, etc. A stay is a stay. He can do it while laying, sitting, and standing. He can stay while balls are rolling in front of him, treats are thrown inches from him, kids running around, dogs are retrieving in the next ring, pomeranian puppies are running amok, girls in heat right next to him (wearing pants, of course), next to strange dogs, etc.

    The bird and gunshot is way harder, I will admit, but he does it. Did it the first time asked with a live flyer. Believe me, I don't need to tell him twice when I release him! I did all the obedience first, and lots of it, which has made the field training easier. Just went a different route based on my interests I suppose.

    So, what about obedience and proofing the stays? Putting a few months into that? I put a solid year into him before starting him on birds.

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    Senior Dog BaconsMom's Avatar
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    I would work the basics. Have him stay for long periods of time, then move up to stays while you throw out dummies. Then frozen birds. Bacon was trained from day 1 to not move unless he is told. With a lot of practice, now he is steady in the blind and a great hunting companion.
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    Senior Dog Snowshoe's Avatar
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    We did not field train for long so no comments on that. But I love your phonetic spelling of "Bahl-uh-FAR"
    Or whatever it is, if not proper phonetics. That would make a great registered name. I wonder if it has been used already?

  5. #5
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowshoe View Post
    We did not field train for long so no comments on that. But I love your phonetic spelling of "Bahl-uh-FAR"
    Or whatever it is, if not proper phonetics. That would make a great registered name. I wonder if it has been used already?
    Thanks. I lived in TN for about 7 years and went to college there.

    We are definitely working on steady for exiting a crate, leaving her dog run, getting her bowl at dinner time, leaving the house, getting in the truck, watching me toss plastic bumpers... and almost anything I can think of. No noise allowed. No happy feet.

    But guns and feathers. Oh, my gosh.

    We are going to do marks today. If she loses her mind again today and fails, we'll just do blinds. I'll report back and let you know.

  6. #6
    Puppy michael m's Avatar
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    I have a very thorough article on "how to steady a dog" that I will send via private message. It is a long article and I didn't want to take up too much of your post.
    Michael

    Here is a key point from the article that may address your issue:

    Notice that there has not been any retrieves so far. The reason for this is you do not want the dog to associate you moving around or the sound of gun fire with “it is time to get up and do something”.
    If we had incorporated retrieves in this the dog would anticipate fun and start to get unsteady. Remember when hunting we often miss more than we hit, so getting the dog wound up from gun fire is not the way to a steady dog.
    Last edited by michael m; 03-11-2015 at 02:38 PM. Reason: added key point information
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    Puppy michael m's Avatar
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    Hi,
    Here is the article I promised regarding "how to steady a dog". I do not know who authored it. Starts off simple and gets more focused with each of the 5 steps of steadiness training. It was too long to send as a Private Message, so I am attaching it here.
    I hope that it helps.
    Michael M.

    Eighty percent of the time a retriever’s job is to sit quietly in the blind and do basically nothing. But we as trainers spend twenty percent of the time training for this. Training for steadiness is boring. We always rush to the fun stuff retrieving.

    First I am an Amish trainer that uses mostly a British based training system with some American concepts. I only train my dogs for hunting ducks and doves, I guide on a few duck hunts each year and use them as pick up dogs at high volume tower/continental shoots. My youngest dog of four does most of my work now he is almost four and picks up between 200 and 500 birds a year. In both these situations a dog that is not steady and calm while working is not only a pain to have hunting but can be put in a dangerous situation. This is especially true at tower/continental shoots which usually have some inexperienced shooters involved. A dog that whines, barks, can’t sit still and/or breaks typically is a nuisance to paying guests, flares birds and puts itself in danger.

    The way I steady my dogs is using a place board. (a two foot by two and a half foot frame with a piece of plywood on top)

    First I want the dog to get used to the place board.

    Step 1 (dummy is not necessary)
    1. "Heel" the dog onto the board and command "Sit".
    I teach my dog the command "Place", but it is not necessary. I use this command to remotely send him to the place board. The “Place” command is useful for later training for the duck blind, pit blind, tree stand, or hunting out of a boat.
    2. Praise the dog, pet it, tell it good dog, give it a treat, basically anything to let the dog know that this is a good place. But do this in a calm voice; do not get the dog excited. Remember you are teaching steadiness.
    3. "Heel” the dog off the board and take a short “heel” around and “sit” the dog back on the place board.
    4. Repeat two or three times to get the dog use to getting on and off of the board.
    5. With the dog at “Sit”, if you use the “Stay” command, use it, stand next to the dog as if it were at heel. If the dog moves put it back on the board and reprimand with a sharp “NO” give the “Sit/Stay” command.

    3. Have the dog “Sit” for a short time. (Vary the duration of time.)
    4. Then move away from the dog. (if the dog comes off the board put it back) and slowly increase the time and the distance. Never call the dog off of the place board, always walk back to the dog.
    5. Repeat steps 2 through 4 three to five times
    6. End the session

    Work up until the dog can sit for a few minutes and then slowly increase the duration of the “sit”. Eventually the dog will sit until you release it. I have had mine sit on the board for hours while I work in the yard. Usually the dog will just lie down once it understands the concept and gets bored.

    Note: Never call the dog or send the dog for a retrieve from the board at this point, you do not want to confuse the dog. The object of the board is so the dog learns to stay where you put him. Always heel the dog off the board.

    Once the dog is sitting and comfortable on the board you can start to increase the time. This is when the real steadiness training begins.

    Step 2 (if Step 1 went well)
    Get a dove stool, a magazine and the place board. Have the place board where you normally would have the dog sit at heel and put the dove stool where you would normally stand.
    1. Heel the dog up on to the place board and have the dog sit.
    2. Sit in the dove stool.
    3. Read the magazine, do not just skim the magazine read every article.
    4. Every once in awhile get up and stretch your legs, but leave the dog on the place board (this will simulate you moving around in the blind)
    5. After you have read the magazine heel the dog off the board and that ends the session.

    If session two went well, (meaning the dog did not get off of the board, he either sat there or laid down and stayed calm and relaxed.) we can increase the excitement of the steadiness training.

    Step 3
    Dove stool, place board, magazine ( a book maybe better) and cap gun or starter pistol or shotgun with primer loads (use the gun only if the dog has been conditioned to gun fire). I would probably just start with a cap gun even if the dog has been conditioned to gun fire.

    Repeat step 2 and add this:
    1. As you read the magazine, after you read each article or every five or six pages fire one shot and only one shot from the gun.
    2. Make sure the dog remains steady.
    3. Repeat until you have fired five or six times.
    4. Then continue reading until you feel like stopping.
    5. End session

    Notice that there has not been any retrieves so far. The reason for this is you do not want the dog to associate you moving around or the sound of gun fire with “it is time to get up and do something”. If we had incorporated retrieves in this the dog would anticipate fun and start to get unsteady. Remember when hunting we miss more than we hit so getting the dog wound up from gun fire is not the way to a steady dog.

    I would repeat step 3 until you can shoot a shotgun with primer or popper loads and get limited (perked up ears) or know reaction at all.

    Step 4 (now you can bring one training dummy with you)
    1. Repeat step 3.
    2. After you read an entire chapter and have fired a few times throw one mark or fire off a bird launcher with the dummy in it if you have one.
    3. Do not let the dog retrieve
    4. Read three or four more pages and continue the shooting
    5. Get up and go pick up the dummy yourself

    Why not let the dog retrieve? We are teaching steadiness and this is a denial. This simulates not wanting to pick up a bird because more birds are decoying or you have another retriever in the blind and it is not your dogs turn to retrieve.


    6. End the session.

    If your dog has remained steady and calm through everything so far go on to the next step. If not, repeat the above.

    Step 5
    1. Repeat step four.
    2. If all is going well and you have thrown three or four denials
    3. Throw another retrieve and fire a few more shots and continue reading
    4. If the dog continues to be steady, line the dog and send him on the retrieve.


    Later, a shackled bird, shot flyers are all introduced the same way with very few actual retrieves while doing the steadiness.
    Even with a seasoned dog I still do this with them on fairly regular basis.
    This should get you started to steadying your dog.
    Michael M.Hidden Content

  8. #8
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Thank you Michael...

    I know you are an Amish trainer. But I agree with your approach and I don't think the e-collar is at all appropriate to solve this problem. The work on the line is a team thing. The stimulation with the e-collar is impersonal, the dog doesn't necessarily associate it with the handler...

    She knows the "place" command. But I've used it to do stand-alone retrieves. (i.e., I stand in a field, toss the bumper, she retrieves it and brings it to hand, then I can send her back to her place, go to another spot and do another stand-alone mark.)

    But I think you're right-on. We can work on your system in the backyard, or if the weather is cr*ppy, we can do it in the garage.

    Question: Will a kindle work as well as a magazine?

  9. #9
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Progress note:

    I promised to relate how she did in training today. We did not run her on marks at all today. After all the gun stations were broken down and all the birds put back on the truck, I brought her out and ran two blinds. I can honestly say that her whining and agitation when we are running isolated blinds has been solved. She is all business as far as that goes.

    She's still a baby when it comes to retriever work. So when she ran past a lot of duck scent on her way to the blind, she put her nose down and instinctively began hunting, just sure there was a duck in the grass somewhere. I'm happy to report that she answered up to the whistle pronto, and let me handle her out of the heavy scent.

    So we'll take it slow and gradual on marks for the next several weeks. No rush. We have the rest of her life to get this done right.

  10. #10
    Puppy michael m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    Thank you Michael...
    Question: Will a kindle work as well as a magazine?

    Yes, I am sure that a Kindle will work as well or even better than a magazine or book. Being an "Amish Trainer", I never even considered such a high tech leap!!!

    Also, just to be clear that I am not stealing someone else's work... I am not the author of the article. I received it and thought it was very good. I am an "Amish Trainer" and that is probably why someone was nice enough to make sure that I had the article. They did not include the name of the Author, or I would have provided it.

    I really like the idea about getting the dog used to gunfire and activity in the blind/field when there will be "no action" for the dog. So many dogs get "conditioned" to activity as soon as or almost immediately following the sound of gunshots ringing out and the article clearly address a means to prevent "unsteadiness" due to that "anticipation by the dog".
    Michael M.
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