Behavior question

[Blue]

I wasn't sure what to post this under. We know that this isn't health related, and I don't know that it's necessarily a training issue either.

I guess I will just jump right into it. I have a probably pure bred, although definitely not well bred Labrador. We took him in when he was almost a year old. He, at that point, lacked training, but grasped on pretty quickly. Although he was a rather impolite dog, he liked to play with pretty much any other dog in the world.

When he was 18 months old, and much more polite (though not perfect) we began fostering. There was only one foster dog who he didn't get along with in the first 6 months. Said dog was another male Labrador, and when I say didn't get along, I mostly mean he avoided him, but was also pretty stressed out by this dog's presence. Our lab would pace, and pant. When we would take him out to play with his dog friends, he wouldn't play (and foster dog was not even present), he would instead just lay down at my feet. We took that foster dog back, and brought home a new dog, and things went back to normal. The foster coordinator thought maybe it was just a male-male thing, and started matching us with only female fosters, which was wonderful for awhile.

When he was around two years old, we noticed that he was less likely to jump right in to play with another dog. If we walked them first, we were good to go. Our trainer told us that since he was becoming more of an "adult" dog, he might start to develop preferences as far as what types of dogs he likes being around, and how he likes to play. We also found out when he was around this age that he has moderate hip dysplasia. We thought maybe this could also be part of the reason he wasn't eager to jump in and play with a new dog. However, when he did decide to play, he did still play hard. The only difference was that he was a little slower to start. (We at that point consulted with a surgeon, surgery would be more harm than good for him. We started on supplements, and did a rehab program to strengthen the muscles around his hips, which helped big time. He has no symptoms of pain anymore. He is able to play until he is tired, rather than play only until he is in pain.)

When he was two and a half, we adopted a second dog, and continued to foster. We had stuck with the all female fosters up until this point, and the male lab was still the only foster dog that he didn't get along with.

At around three years old, we fostered a male dog again. This was probably our dog's favorite foster! So we knew that not only did he like male dogs (aside from the foster, he never had problems with a male dog, we though just living with another male may have been what was stressful), but he could love living with one. Also around three years though, we noticed that if dogs who our boy didn't know were to run right up to him, or start to give him a serious sniff down, or heaven forbid, try to start playing-- oh! or the most major of all offenses known to our dog, try to greet face to face-- our dog would snap at them. Take those same dogs for a walk with him, then allow them to try again, and things were hunky dory.

We were told by trainers, and the foster coordinator not to get worked up about this. That our dog just liked his own space, and had every right to correct dogs who were greeting in ways that he isn't comfortable with. We found that most other pet owners do not share this philosophy. We would let other owners know if there dog was approaching in a way that our dog wouldn't be comfortable with that he doesn't appreciate those types of greetings. Some people haven't been able to stop their dog from dragging them by leash up to our dog, and when our dog gives that barky snappy correction, people generally flip and say that dogs like ours basically shouldn't be allowed in public.

When he turned 4, we fostered a dog who wanted to play, play, play non-stop. Our dog wasn't into it. Our dog would play for awhile, but then we would have to call the foster away. I'm not sure why, but in the beginning, he would correct this dog if the dog was getting to be too much for him. The other dog took the correction just fine, and would go somewhere else to play by himself. (Our other dog is very slow to warm up to other dogs, and she doesn't really play with dogs besides our lab, or possibly fosters who we have for a couple of months or more.) Eventually though, our dog stopped correcting, and would just sulk when he didn't want to play, and that's when we started calling the other dog away. One day, the dogs started playing, but our dog got backed into a corner, and looked as though he didn't want to play anymore. We called the foster away, but he didn't listen. Instead it looked, literally, like a switch flipped in the foster's head. He growled at our dog in a NOT playful way, and when my OH went to pull him away, the foster lunged at our dog and tried to bite him. He turned around and bit OH, and wouldn't let go. OH let the dog go, and the dog turned around and bit OH's other arm. He again didn't let go, and was tugging on OH's arm. OH stumbled, and stepped on foster dog's toes. Foster dog let go, and just like we saw the switch flip earlier, it flipped back. He went in his crate, layed down, and chewed a toy. We returned the dog, feeling we were in over our heads.

The next dog we fostered was very social, and our lab got along with her very well.

Our dog is almost five now. (Never really thought that thought before. I can't believe he's almost five years old.) We recently had a foster dog who our lab got along with during a meet and greet. When we brought her home, he just didn't seem to like her. Anytime this dog would get in his space at all, he would chase her away with a snap. I'm not sure what the definition of a snap is, so I guess to clarify, I should say he's never bit a dog. It's just this certain type of a bark, and snapping his teeth in the air in the other dog's direction, but has never put his teeth on another dog aside from very obvious play. Our trainer calls it a correction. I worried about this a little bit. He never before seemed to dislike a dog aside from that very first lab we fostered, and this was not the way he reacted to that dog, but he also was in a different place in his life back then. This other dog didn't have problems getting along with other dogs. She actually played by his rules, was not a quick, face first, forceful greeter. She would go to sniff his rump, and he'd turn around and snap. Although I was a little worried, I also figured we had fostered well over a dozen dogs by this point. So, big deal if he's met one dog along the way who he just does not like. I've met plenty of people that I just don't like, even though there really is nothing major wrong with them.

Now, we are fostering a younger dog. Male, not neutered yet, who was hit by a car, and has a broken leg. This is a new experience for us. We have always fostered healthy dogs. So, this dog, and our dog didn't get the intro walk that seems to work for out boy. Our boy barked at this dog who was in a crate the first time he saw him. After that, they would sniff through the crate and wag tails. When they do that, I give them tons of praise, and sometimes treats. Last night, our dog stretched out by the foster dog's crate and laid down next to him, face to face. I thought that seemed like a good sign. Foster dog started sniffing his face, and our dog got stiff and growled. We called him away from the crate. When we gave him the okay to (since when we call him to come, he's automatically in a sit/stay in front of us) to be out of that sit, he chose to lay by the foster dog who was in his crate again. Okay. They seemed fine. When the foster dog got up, our dog got up. There was no more growling, but our dog did tense up a couple of times after sniffing and tail wagging. When he got tense we stopped praising, and called him away before the growl happened. This happened a few times, and eventually the dogs laid down face to face again and fell asleep.

Foster dog was just given the okay to go for walks, so starting today, we are going to walk them together, which will hopefully help. We are hoping that our dog is okay with him.

What I am afraid of, is that our dog is seeming to be less and less social as time goes on. I love fostering, and it is making me extremely sad to think that if my dog stops tolerating other dogs altogether, then we won't be able to continue to foster. I just don't know if maybe I'm missing something. I don't know if this is something that I can do something about. I don't know if I'm doing something wrong. OH predicts that he's on the fast lane to becoming a cranky old man. I'm afraid that he's right, and it just isn't what I want. When I ask trainers, or other dog people, I just get this "Well, he doesn't have to get along with everybody" answer. That's fine with me. If he's just selective, I guess I'll have to find out what kinds of dogs he can be okay with. What I fear is that he's eventually not going to accept new dogs period. And I just don't understand WHY he seems less and less tolerant. I feel like I must be doing something to screw my dog up.

Since he still seems that he likes this foster dog, at least enough that they chilled out and fell asleep right by each other albeit with a a crate between them--- but has also shown a little (is it nervousness?) by the tense body, and the growl--- what might be the best way to move forward with these two, and to help them have positive interaction. I guess I should also say, when our dog growled, foster dog (who is just six months old) slightly backed away, but also tilted his head and gave that confused doggy look. Like he didn't quite understand what that interaction was about.

Also, when do I just have to give up and say he doesn't like other dogs living with us anymore? I am so much hoping that won't have to happen, but I can't just ignore that my dog isn't comfortable in his own home.

Part of me thinks that maybe this isn't even as big a deal as I think. Maybe I'm just too close to the situation, and maybe since just a few months ago we were fostering a dog who he absolutely loved playing with day in and day out, and had absolutely no conflict with whatsoever, it really is just that he didn't like that last foster girlie, and that with this new foster boy the new situation and new circumstances are throwing him off. Even so, over time I have still seen that we have to be more methodic in introductions to set ourselves up for a successful situation. Is that a normal thing for some dogs, or should we be alarmed?

I'm sorry for the long post, but I'm really hoping some outside opinions will help me get a grip on what to really think in this situation. I very honestly just believe I'm too close to it to look at things objectively.

[Snowshoe]

LOL, I read the WHOLE thing. I'm supposed to be doing income tax, it was a good break.

First off, I must say, you seem to be very lucky in the trainers and foster people you are dealing with. I find their advice to you to be good, since it agrees with my view.

Your dog sounds to me to be well rounded and not a problem. He doesn't like rude upstarts he doesn't know running up into his face, lots of mature dogs do not like that. He tells them so with a snap and doesn't bite them? He's a good boy. He likes some dogs more than others? Again, many if not most, are the same. As long as he is not aggressively targetting new dogs and is polite, if stand offish, in my books that's ok. Let him be the dog he is. He doesn't have to like every dog.

Your newest foster might have two counts against him. Dogs sometimes are upset by disability in another dog. I've known a perfectly nice Lab we all met to attack a newly met blind in one eye GR. Disability bothers some more than others. Plus that dog, I mean your foster, was intact and some neutered males really don't like intact males. That's more of a problem for you if you meet intact males but if your dog simply ignores them then ok. And, your neutered, disabled foster was trapped in the crate. The crate is not viewed by some dogs as a place of safety but rather as a place they cannot escape from. They don't seem to realize the other dog can't get them all they see is they can't get away.

LOL, I think you are right, it's not a big deal. Yes, maybe you'll have to be more careful in choosing fosters. Maybe stick with the girlie pups. I see no cause for alarm, all sounds like normal maturing to me.

[Labradorks]

Also, when do I just have to give up and say he doesn't like other dogs living with us anymore? I am so much hoping that won't have to happen, but I can't just ignore that my dog isn't comfortable in his own home.

Reading your post, I'd say that you probably should have stopped fostering about three years ago and that is approximately how long you have been ignoring (that's not quite the right word) that your dog isn't comfortable in your own home. While he may not appreciate the revolving door that is the foster home, he may also be in pain or he may be concerned about the pain should the other dog jump on him. You said he had moderate hip dysplasia when he was two. Where is he now? Even if he doesn't show pain, Labs are incredibly stoic animals.

I commend you for your volunteer service and appreciate your passion. But, when you get a dog, you have to put his needs first when it comes to fostering. There are things you can do instead of fostering and each and every one of those things makes a difference. While volunteer organizations tend to sometimes guilt people into fostering, believe me when I say that if they want to take in a dog bad enough and it's a life or death situation, they will find a way. Volunteer organizations also tend to make light of things that are stressing out their foster homes, and as long as there's no blood being shed, they tend to say what needs to be said so they won't have to move the dog.

Several years ago I fostered all the time. Sometimes two dogs at a time. I had two dogs of my own and they liked the company of other dogs and were healthy enough to put up with them. I tried to foster again last summer with a local golden rescue (no Lab rescue here). I now have two young Labs and while they loved having buddies, I realized I did not have time for my dogs, and while they were happy enough, they were missing out on the things we would be doing if I was not fostering -- training, hiking, swimming, etc., which made me feel guilty and stressed. I made the tough decision because it felt it was the best decision for my dogs -- and for me. Now, instead, I provide home checks for them on a regular basis. It was definitely the right decision.

Plenty of people foster for a long time, then move on because of life changes. You would not be the first, and definitely not the last. And, just because you can't foster now, doesn't mean you won't be able to in the future. Consider it a break. And, at some point, when you are sadly dogless, you should make the decision whether you want to foster OR be a dog owner, if fostering means that much to you and you don't want to compromise your ability to do so again.

[Blue]

Well, there are two very different responses!

Thanks for both.

[Tanya]

My first question would be if you've had his hips checked again and if he is on any pain meds. I'd be curious if he is in more discomfort which is causing some of this.

But that aside, I tend to agree with Labradorks. I also foster so I get it, I do. But it sounds like either due to pain or just personality, your dog doesn't enjoy having random dogs in the house. I know some people continue to foster even if their dog isn't 100% into it, that's a choice you have to make.

So I see two possibilities (or maybe three):
- possibly some pain management will help him feel more comfortable which could lead to bouncing back with new dogs in the house.
- stop fostering for a good while.
- if you do bring in dogs do more separation. Be on top of the foster more when they are loose together (I am all for letting dogs correct each other but sounds like maybe your dog needs help so step in, help your dog) and give lots of separation between the dog with baby gates and crates.

All the corrections your dog is making sound totally appropriate. If other owners are getting mad that's because they don't understand dogs - so as hard as it is ignore them. I find people think it'S totally fine for their dog to be total jerks ("friendly jerks") but totally appropriate correction to that innapriateness is seen as "aggression".

[Snowshoe]

Well, there are two very different responses!

Thanks for both.

Interesting, huh? Labradorks and Tanya both do/did foster. I would but a foster would not fit my lifestyle with six other critters in the house. I find I usually agree with advice given by them. I stand by my claim there is nothing wrong with your dog but I agree no fosters at all might be the easiest way to handle the situation.

[Tanya]

totally agree, nothing wrong with what your dog is doing. But I would also try to see what's causing it and how to make the dog more comfortable (again maybe you can foster with more separate and still keep your dog happy - maybe older dogs that are calm and less playful).

ETA: I am not saying I only foster if my dogs "love love love" it. Rocky WAS quite annoyed by the antics of many of the younger fosters, but he was tolerant and generally gave back. I let them pester him as I knew it was the only way he would play (and he would eventually). While annoyed he wasn't fearful or shut down. I added Penny a year and a half ago an she tends to sulk after the initial fun of playing with a new dog (even when I dog sit) but that's not something I worry about either. And her being there means the fosters now leave rocky alone (he's much older so I won't let them just pester him anymore - at least not as much). I slowed down the fostering as walking three dogs is more than I can take and Penny needs some work still so I need to concentrate on her.

[Blue]

Hip x-rays are unchanged, and ROM is actually better since going through rehab. No arthritis yet, which is good! Honestly, the orthopedic surgeon kindly told us that to have noticed his dysplasia in the first place that we must be the type of people who take our dog to the vet when so much as a hair is out of place. They were surprised to even be seeing him. We used to notice a slight sway when he walked after tons of running around, and he would stop playing before other dogs and start with this sway. Nowadays, he plays until he's tired (which he didn't before) and no sway. No pain meds.

I didn't mean to paint the picture of a dog who isn't getting around very well, and has major limitations in that way. Sorry if that part came out wrong. I wouldn't necessarily do something like agility or dock diving that would encourage him to put a lot of pressure on those joints on a routine basis because I want those x-rays to show no change as long as possible, but he isn't limited in normal daily dog things. Playing is fine, forced jumping or running, not so much. We were told that if we're going to constantly keep him from playing while he's young and wants to play in hopes that he might not have as many aches and pains when he's older that we're pretty much defeating our own purpose by not letting him enjoy life now.

[Doreen Davis]

You sound like a sensitive, responsible owner. I am struck by the little we know about rescues and the impact that may or may not have on interactions with the 'home' guy. We had a collie, Ruthie, who tolerated her "siblings" but couldn't play with other females (other than her sisters), only boy dogs.

I think you are very attuned to your dogs behavior and you have little back story on the newbies, maybe a break for a bit on the fostering or you continue to foster, and remain ever vigilant (that would be stressful for me).

We have our wonderful Stella, the yellow girl shown here with her big brother Anthony, because someone rescued and fostered so a big thank you for all you do. Attachment 2541

[Annette47]

I think you’ve gotten great advice already, but wanted to chime in too as Chloe sounds a lot like your dog in that she doesn’t like dogs running up and getting in her face. She’s fine with a quick (2-3 second) sniff and go, but if a dog persists longer than that or pushes too fast she will take offense .... she rarely air snaps, but will lift her lip and maybe growl a bit. She also isn’t overly interested in playing with other dogs, although she will occasionally play keep away with a toy - she’s not one for bitey face with a stranger. Now that said, I make a point when idiots come running up with their dogs of putting myself between the dog and her, and we usually only encounter these idiots while we are out running so as we go by, I say something (loud enough to be heard) along the lines, of “It’s not playtime, we’re running” to give a reason why I don’t stop for a prolonged encounter. For the most part, that works well, as does rewarding her for being gradually more and more tolerant of strange dogs - she’s getting better as she gets older. What I have done is watch her closely, and when I can tell she is done with her part of the encounter, I call her and reward her, rather than leaving it to her to try to end the interaction in her own way. The more I do that, the less stressed she seems to be about meeting new dogs. I think it’s changed her focus from “ok we said hello, now what is this dog going to do next?” to “Ok we said hello, now where the hell is my cookie?”, reducing any anxiety she has.

I don’t rescue, but I will say that Chloe does have some doggy friends - they are dogs that she has seen regularly at training class for months or year and gotten to know slowly. I would think that if your boy is of similar personality, it might just take him a while to warm up and get to know other dogs, and he might be fine after an initial period of cautiousness. The issue for you, is how long does your average fostering assignment last and how often does he need to get to know a new dog? Only you can figure out what his limits are, and perhaps give him a break now and then from it.