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  1. #1
    House Broken happy_blackbird's Avatar
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    Ellie's New Aversion to ME

    Good morning, everyone! I won't retread Ellie's issues, as I already have a long post on her once-upon-a-time crate anxieties, but a new one popped up this weekend that I seem to be ill equipped to address. I would love any and all advice.

    Ellie developed a pair of small masses in her armpit in the last couple of months that her vet wanted to remove and have sent for pathology. As she was already going to be under anesthesia, doesn't have a recessed vulva, and is getting close to her first heat cycle, we went forward with her spay. They sent her home on Friday still gorked out from the anesthesia and narcotic pain meds, but without an e-collar on. When she got past the crying/moaning/vomiting stage and it was time to go to bed, I calmly put the inflatable donut on her which, let's face it, they never never like. Ellie, however, flew into a freak out reminiscent of her crate panic. As we were supposed to be keeping her still and quiet, I tried to get to her before she could rip open any of her incisions (either the internal ones in her abdomen or the external pair under her armpit). In the ten seconds she ran from me, she got the donut off her head, but was choking on the attached collar (as if the collar wasn't already the evil enemy). I got the whole mess off my frantic dog and then had to work her into a t-shirt instead to keep her incisions safe while we caught some sleep. This went nearly as poorly, but at least she couldn't get it off. After breaking out of her frozen statue panic (where she wouldn't even take a cookie), she cried and yipped and kicked and threw a tantrum (but this time I had the bedroom door closed and there nowhere for her to run to).

    Ellie has not come near me since (36 hours). She actually ran from me this morning when I gave her the "on your mat" command to give her a treat. No amount of cooing, treats, or calm stillness will entice this dog to approach me again. I feel so sad and frustrated. Everything with Ellie has felt like a battle, right from the start, but I have kept moving forward in the knowledge that all the hard work we're doing now will result in a great adult dog and a wonderful companion. To have her reject me outright feels like a kick to the gut.

    On thursday, prior to the spay, we had a local trainer (who works primarily with working dogs) who is well known and well respected in the area come over to assess Ellie and help us create a plan for her continued training. She called Ellie an exceptionally pushy, mouthy, stubborn, and self focused dog, still in the throes of puppydom, but in need of correction and strict boundaries. She thinks Ellie needs to learn that she sometimes has to do things that she doesn't want to do (which, apparently, right now is very hard on her). She also added that she thought Ellie was a tough dog to handle (even though she doesn't have a mean bone in her body) and that it would be a good idea for Ellie to be in a professional training environment (which this trainer, unfortunately, doesn't do).

    So my two questions are:

    1. Has anyone every experienced this with their lab? If so, will this aversion to me pass? Will I forever be associated with what will henceforth be known as "The Evil Donut Incident"?

    2. Did anyone else have a puppy who was of this temperament and nature and, if so, did you ever bond with her/him? Does it get easier? We got through the crate anxiety phase, the land shark phase, the tantrum-zoomie phase, and are now working our way through the adolescent puppy-middle-finger stage and a brand new aversion phase. I wake up most mornings full of anxiety over how I'm going to manage Ellie for the day, how I'm going to give her enough exercise, how I will manage her obstinance while remaining as calm and positive as possible. I see other people with their happy labs having fun or I think about our life with our previous lab, and I feel so, so sad.
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  2. #2
    Best Friend Retriever Sue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy_blackbird View Post

    On thursday, prior to the spay, we had a local trainer (who works primarily with working dogs) who is well known and well respected in the area come over to assess Ellie and help us create a plan for her continued training. She called Ellie an exceptionally pushy, mouthy, stubborn, and self focused dog, still in the throes of puppydom, but in need of correction and strict boundaries. She thinks Ellie needs to learn that she sometimes has to do things that she doesn't want to do (which, apparently, right now is very hard on her). She also added that she thought Ellie was a tough dog to handle (even though she doesn't have a mean bone in her body) and that it would be a good idea for Ellie to be in a professional training environment (which this trainer, unfortunately, doesn't do).


    So my two questions are:

    1. Has anyone every experienced this with their lab? If so, will this aversion to me pass? Will I forever be associated with what will henceforth be known as "The Evil Donut Incident"?

    2. Did anyone else have a puppy who was of this temperament and nature and, if so, did you ever bond with her/him? Does it get easier? We got through the crate anxiety phase, the land shark phase, the tantrum-zoomie phase, and are now working our way through the adolescent puppy-middle-finger stage and a brand new aversion phase. I wake up most mornings full of anxiety over how I'm going to manage Ellie for the day, how I'm going to give her enough exercise, how I will manage her obstinance while remaining as calm and positive as possible. I see other people with their happy labs having fun or I think about our life with our previous lab, and I feel so, so sad.
    I completely cringed when I read the "trainer's" assessment of Ellie. She is a classic fearful dog, and you really really need to speak to a behaviorist (positive based) about dealing with her anxieties. From all you have posted, she's going to need quite a bit of confidence building. She is NOT being obstinate. She is being a puppy. A Lab puppy. Most have shark tendencies, they are a VERY mouthy breed. Dealing with it in a positive way helps get you through it. Zoomies are good. No, they're great! There is nothing I"ve enjoyed more than watching a Lab get their zoomies out, especially when it's an older dog. It shows enthusiasm and zest for life, NOT being bad, they're not out to get you.
    I also cringe when I hear this talk about a "teenage" phase. I have never experienced it, not with multiple dogs over my lifetime, including one that could be classified as a dog from hell. If you expect that kind of behavior,you will get that kind of behavior. Your expectations when looking at Ellie need to not be so regretful, nor frustrated (which I can sense from your posts), and need to be positive.

    Here is a good article about a study (with references) about fear in dogs.
    The fearful Dog: Causes and Treatment | NJ.com

    Please please read this in its entirety.

    Some parts of the article (for those that don't want to click through):

    *********************************
    How To Help A Dog Suffering From Fear
    Contacting a vet or vet behaviorist and reporting the behavior to your vet should be the first step. The vet will run blood tests and evaluate the dog for underlying medical issues that may be causing the behavior. Many illnesses can cause fear or aggressive responses, so it’s important to rule those out.


    Myths Surrounding Fear
    There are many misconceptions and myths these days concerning how one should handle a fearful dog. Some suggest the owner should refrain from coddling it. One popular television show often labels these dogs “dominant,” because the fear is expressed through aggressive displays and are misinterpreted. Others assume the animal was abused or mistreated in some way.

    The Influence of Human Emotions
    Owner emotions often play a role in affecting a dog’s fear levels. Often, owners become frustrated or embarrassed when the dog acts out in public. Some get angry and yell at the dog or resort to punishments such as yanking on collars or fitting the dog with a shock collar to control the behavior. Some alpha roll their dogs thinking that holding the dog on the ground will somehow affect calm behavior. Once the event is over these individuals become loving and doting pet parents again. This is especially true of dogs that fear people and aggress toward them outside of the home. The owner may yell at the dog or even punish it outdoors, but once inside becomes the loving, doting parent once again.
    This emotional roller-coaster the dog takes with its owner often exacerbates the behavior and makes it more complex and difficult to treat. Additionally, the animal begins to mistrust its owner because it can never predict their human’s behavior.


    Effective Treatment Strategies
    The most effective way to handle a dog’s fear is to remain relaxed and in control in all situations and avoid any circumstances that elicits a fear response. This easily can be accomplished by turning around and walking away from something scary, taking the dog outdoors when the presence of fearful stimuli is at its lowest, taking a position in front of your dog to protect it from a perceived threat (especially if it's a child), or soothing the dog with kind words.
    Breathing plays an important role. The way one breathes speaks volumes about their emotional state to the dog. The dog relies on these states for valuable clues to decide what constitutes an actual treat. When owners leave the house frustrated or fearful their dogs will react accordingly or remain on high alert the entire time they’re outdoors.


    Repeated Exposure to Frightful Stimuli
    When an animal is exposed to repeated traumatic events high levels of glucocorticoids (fear hormone) are released. The result is damage to the neurons in areas of the hippocampus, which can result in deficits in new learning.
    This phenomena has been reported in post war veterans, police officers and others suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) and those who experienced sustained levels of extreme stress or loud sounds. The most extreme effects of damage to neurons in this area of the brain is reported by those individuals who had to kill another human in order to preserve their own life.
    Deficits in learning also have been observed in dogs exposed to shock collars and harsh methods of training. Such animals display what can only be described as the canine equivalent of attention deficit disorder (ADD), learned helplessness (dog shuts down), and general difficulties learning new tasks, problem-solving, or unwillingness to experiment with new behaviors.

    Looking To The Future
    Owners should be reasonable about their goals. They should have short-, mid- and long-range goals. Training a dog with fear issues can be a lengthy process and it's among the most challenging behaviors to treat. It doesn't necessarily have to be difficult for the owner, though. Training should be fun and filled with games and enjoyable activities so the dog and owner have fun while learning.


    Once a dog has been diagnosed by a veterinary behaviorist, a trainer can and should design a customized training program to help the dog overcome its issues, make recommendations for changes in exercise, diet, and more.
    Training may include counter conditioning, operant conditioning and desensitization to fearful stimuli. All training should be positively based. Training may also include classical conditioning designed to help the dog change its emotional state in relation to those things it fears. This is called a conditioned- emotional response, or CER. Under no circumstances should the dog be physically punished, coerced, corrected or flooded (bombarded with stimuli until it no longer reacts) during the training process.
    Another helpful training tactic is applying the “nothing in life is free” program (NILIF). This means the dog will have to work for everything: food, toys, treats, praise and walks. NILIF helps to instill, in the dog’s mind, that the owner is a competent leader because the owner controls the good stuff and gives the dog much-needed direction. It also provides a very predictable life for the dog and can offer them a great deal of stability. Moreover, it gives the dog something else to do other than worry.

    ********************


    I highly recommend reading the entire article, and contacting someone other than an apparent dominance based trainer.
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  4. #3
    House Broken happy_blackbird's Avatar
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    Sue, thanks for all the information you included. We actually have already seen a vet behavioralist (back when we were struggling to get Ellie comfortable to her crate) and I will admit up front, she wasn't a good fit for us (she told us Ellie would probably never adjust to the crate and that just was not true). I found the advice I received here to be much more effective. Our new vet has worked with a different behaviorist up at UC Davis and we've talked about bring her up there for an eval.

    I never said that the trainer who came to the house was a "dominance type" trainer. She was quiet and peaceful with Ellie and in no way, shape, or form exhibited a dominating style with her. Quite the opposite, she was preternaturally calm with Ellie and observed her temperament with a keen eye and engaged her in a positive, fun manner. She calmly but firmly asked Ellie to respect her physical boundaries, something we think is totally appropriate (I'm all for a happy, excited lab, but jumping up to nip people in the face out of excitement when they arrive at the house is not a behavior we think is ok), and Belly struggled to not continually jump onto her.

    Maybe I'm not using the term "zoomie" in a way that is the same way you are. It's not a run around with glee thing, which is awesome to see. What I am describing is a blind, run into walls tantrum thing.

    Yes, I am frustrated. Yes, I am really tired. Up until Ellie, I have always thought issues with dogs had more to do with their owners and how the dogs are handled than the dog and I was very judgmental of people who complained about their dog's behaviors (and even more judgmental about behaviors I witnessed). I think it's great that you've never had to deal with a dog that shows teenage obstinance, but this is not the first dog I've raised from a puppy and I can tell you, Ellie is a different type of personality than I've ever encountered. I would love to have Zen calm with Ellie and approach every day with her with happy, positive energy that brings out her best, but some days are harder than others and I often post on the hard days because I find the advice, community, and support invaluable.
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    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    I had a GSD that was much as you describe (freaked out, tended to attack, and... worst of all, had Pica, he ate rocks and obstructed twice before he was 5 months old.)

    We sent him off to a behaviorist who kept him for 8 weeks, and the dog came home as a normal and happy dog. His relationships with us were totally affectionate after that. He remained dog aggressive, if he didn't know the dog, but that was manageable.

    I don't know if the person was totally positive. I know he was the best guy on the west coast, and he was certified to train and certify other behaviorists/trainers. In demand by all realms of working dog people.

    So, I recognized I couldn't deal with poor little Dutch, and will always be glad I pulled the string and bit the bullet and did what was best for him.

  6. #5
    Best Friend Retriever Sue's Avatar
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    A calm demeanor does not a positive trainer make. The comments she made about Ellie being a dominant dog is what leads me to believe she's more old fashioned. Ellie is a puppy, and by no means am I criticizing your frustration with her, but the feeling that she's not like your other Labs is telling me there is some conflict between you and her. Also, dealing with working dogs like GSDs is NOT the same as dealing with sporting dogs. Just saying. Fran (POPTOP) can verify that.

    For your current issue, the fear of you, I'd recommend ignoring it. And by that, I mean, get down on her level (down on your knees, or squatted down), don't bend over her at all. Turn off to the side and let her come to you. Get her curious, by playing with a toy, but totally ignoring her. Just make sure she knows you're having fun. When she comes, don't grab her, just keep your head turned away so she doesn't perceive you as a threat (imagined, since she actually seems quite bright). If she wants to join in, by all means share. It might take a while for her confidence in you to come back, but I'm sure it will. After all, you control the food.

    That and reaching for her from the top is also something that dogs as a rule, do not like. It has to be conditioned in, via training. To put a collar on, approach from below the chin and work your way up. Don't grab from the top. Same with petting, most dogs truly don't like to be patted on their head.

    I'm glad you asked your vet for a referral to to UC Davis. I hope you and her can work through these issues, she seems like a great dog, even if she doesn't quite meet your expectations. But make sure she gets a medical workup, too. Much more than just a quick exam, including the full thyroid panel.

    Did you read the part in the article about NILIF? Do you practice it? As in, she has to sit before her food dish is placed on the floor. She has to sit and wait at the door calmly before she can go out. And so on. That is a necessity for her, I think. She has to work for and earn her food.

  7. #6
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    What were your other puppies like, especially as compared to Ellie? Specifically, is one a field Lab while the others were conformation bred Labs? What are some of the ways in which their pedigrees and/or backgrounds differed? Is Ellie your first Lab puppy? This could help identify whether or not it's issues on her end or traits that you're not familiar with.

    Part of it is training, but a lot of it is temperament and personality traits passed down from their parents. It's why looking at pedigrees (titles) helps you see what you're getting, as does meeting the parents, talking to people with dogs with similar lines, etc. Are there lots of successful therapy dogs? Obedience dogs? Hunting dogs? Family pets?

    Can you talk to the breeder? Sometimes having these conversations is helpful when you're trying to figure out your dog (is it her or me?) or help them. The breeder can let you know that maybe the dad was a holy terror as a pup but calmed significantly as an adult. Or maybe the mom was a certain way, they tried a specific sport, and that really mellowed her out? Or maybe one of her siblings' owners were having the same issues and tried "X" and it works? It's worth a shot.

  8. #7
    Best Friend Retriever Sue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    Part of it is training, but a lot of it is temperament and personality traits passed down from their parents.
    This goes right along with that article I posted. There is a definite genetic component, but I am of the opinion (as are many others) that you need to look at the dam for the temperament, much more so than the sire. After all, they spend several weeks in utero, influenced by mom. and several weeks after being whelped, being influenced by her personality and temperament.

    It would be a good idea to contact the breeder, and to find out about the dam's temperament. It might provide important clues.
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    House Broken happy_blackbird's Avatar
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    Thanks, Sue, for the suggestion of just playing in her vicinity. That was a great idea. She's actually lying in my lap, sleeping, as I type this, so it seems to have passed for now.

    We met her mom. She is a very sweet natured and snuggly dog, but also, at 6, mushy with physical boundaries (she jumped up onto us at the door and while we were the house, put her head in our laps when we sat, stepped on our feet as we walked). Both parents lines are full of hunt and field titles, dad's a family dog now and still hunts (we were told we couldn't meet him the day we picked up Ellie because it was opening duck day). Both parents came out of seemingly well respected midwestern lines. I will be honest, I was so deep in grief over loosing our last lab last summer, that they only thing I focused on was finding breeding lines that were free of cancer. I didn't ask about temperament at all and perhaps didn't do the research I should have done. I told the breeder exactly what we were looking for (good natured personality, intelligence, exercise tolerance, desire to please, happy to be a family dog, solid drive) and he seemed to think his puppies would fit that description (and thought we would be a good fit for one). When I've spoke to the breeder about Ellie's issues that pop up, he swears he's never come across that in any of her litters with the sire. He didn't sound surprised, however, when I told him that Ellie had been expelled from doggie daycare (something we tried out when she was struggling with her crate).

    We've always had field labs, so felt (perhaps falsely) confident that we understood the general breed characteristics. This is the first time we're raising a dog in an urban environment instead of rurally, however, so we weren't able to do a lot of the same things with Ellie as we did with our other dogs (romping in national forest, off leash work right off the bat, swimming). I also unexpectedly had surgery two weeks after we brought her home, so wasn't in the greatest shape physically the first six or so weeks we had her. But we also never before had a puppy with her particular set of behaviors (face lunging, frustrated zoomies, extremely bite-y, and resisting the crate, quick to balk). I can clearly see now that I have had wildly unrealistic expectations for her right from the get go, I just want to do what I can to make her and our lives better from this point forward.

    TuMicks, that story really hit home for us. It's hard to hand your puppy over to someone for help, but I know I don't know how to unravel some of Ellie's behaviors. We're now actively looking for professional help to help us learn how to best help Ellie be the dog we hope she can be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sue View Post
    This goes right along with that article I posted. There is a definite genetic component, but I am of the opinion (as are many others) that you need to look at the dam for the temperament, much more so than the sire. After all, they spend several weeks in utero, influenced by mom. and several weeks after being whelped, being influenced by her personality and temperament.

    It would be a good idea to contact the breeder, and to find out about the dam's temperament. It might provide important clues.
    In general I'd agree with this assessment. However, Sophie was a lot like Ellie, she tested me at every turn, and to a certain extent, she still does. Her mom is a super sweet, laid back girl, who worked as well as showed, as most of her progeny have done. Sophie's sire is a pure bench bred dog, a UK Show Champion, no working dogs in his background. As I was going though puppyhood with Sophie I'd confer with her breeder, and they said she's much like every pup in her litter, and a subsequent litter that was the same breeding a year later. These pups are nothing like they have every bred, temperament wise.

    Sometimes maybe the genetics just don't mesh, and you end up with very atypical Lab traits. I think that over the past 20 years or so, Lab temperament has taken a turn for the worse. When you look at the breed standard, you see "biddable and eager to please", and these puppies are anything but. I am not a breeder, but if I were, my first priority would be to breed for temperament first, everything else second.

    I wish you the best of luck with Ellie, and I hope you get the right trainer to bring the best from her.

  11. #10
    Real Retriever Laura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy_blackbird View Post
    Maybe I'm not using the term "zoomie" in a way that is the same way you are. It's not a run around with glee thing, which is awesome to see. What I am describing is a blind, run into walls tantrum thing.
    Theo gets zoomies where he blasts around the yard, butt-tucking, and smiling the whole time. He also does the frustrated, tantrum-type running around. The first time it happened, it was while we were on a walk. We were at about the two mile mark, it was snowy, and he got a paw tangled in his leash. I reached down to untangle him, and he bolted. I don't know why, or what was happening around me on that street corner, as I was just focused on his leg. Well, in running, he managed to get another wrapped up. The more he struggled, the more entangled he got. He was flopping around, biting at me. I had to restrain his head so I could get his legs unwound, and I was afraid that he was going to break a paw at that rate. So that episode passed, but the next time we were out walking and I tried to untangle his leg, he freaked. Running to the end of the leash, flipping about. The third time was when we were at a stop light and the railroad tracks made a noise and scared him. He tried to bolt again. It was much clearer this time. I got control of him and reassured him, and he spent the rest of that stoplight cycle pressed against my legs with his back to the railroad track. So that made me think the "tantrums" were fear-based. I don't know what spooked him initially, but then he associated that untangling episode as something bad and triggered it the next time. He wasn't being a brat about being untangled, he was just freaked out. The only reason I tell you this, is that some of the obstinate and tantrum-type behaviors may actually be fear-based.

 



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