Fear Of The Unknown???

[IRISHWISTLER]

Aye Mates,
T'is no secret that I regularly post here on LCB, specifically articles on training related matters and me own approach in that regard. Overwhelmingly me posts are accepted as time tested, results - based materials that are widely accepted as foundational methods of retriever training. Many have sent PM"s to thank me and to seek additional answers to their training related problems. This is further supported by the number of members that read the posts and "THANK" me in the open forum. All this considered the norm until I post articles on or having to do with the seemingly taboo subject of "FORCE FETCH"??? So what gives??? One member in reply to an article I posted advocating "FORCE FETCH" was staunchly opposed to the FF process in reply to me writings, but nothing was backed up with information as to why she opposed it? My initial read on the matter is that she had very little real world / first hand experience with the "FORCE FETCH" process, other than posting her opposition for it.

It seems that there is a segment of the membership here on LCB that is publicly unwilling to be counted as being an advocate for FF conditioning. What is the fear of open dialog on this subject???


Positive physical contact and verbal praise are the most common forms of reward used in me approach to FORCED FETCJ conditioning, and very effectively so.


My proofing is under actual / real world hunting conditions and are highly dependable.

So, anyone willing to weigh in on the matter?

Cheers,
THE DOG WHISTLER

[Anna Scott]

Irish Whistler, I can't agree with you more about the value of a FF done properly. Having just finished working with a group hoping to get their working certificates ( non of which have a FF'ed dog) it only drove home how valuable a tool the force fetch is. Many do not understand that the FF is not simply forcing the dog to pick up but is a way of cleaning up many of the problems that the handler has created. I do not do the force myself but send the dogs to a very good pro because I want it done correctly.

[Georgia]

I don't have a hunting retriever so I don't know what goes into proper training, so I can't comment on force fetch training. It's very obvious to me you know what you're doing and your dogs are well trained. I wish my boys were half as well trained as yours are! I think people often misunderstand training techniques outside of the treat driven type training. I have noticed that I run into negative comments on the board about training with an Ecollar. The Ecollar was our salvation and if used properly, I see nothing wrong with it. Our trainer specifically uses the Ecollar over prong collars, choke collars, head harnesses, etc. and the results are amazing. However, lots of people still misunderstand the Ecollar and are judgmental toward people who use them. I never, ever shock my dog into submission. To me, it's so much better for human and dog to give a correction with an Ecollar than to get dragged down the street by a dog who won't listen. Anyway, just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

[Labradorks]

This subject has been beaten to death on the board, just do a search.

I, personally, do not do it and I am opposed to it only when done incorrectly and when done without reason. I don't think it has a 100% success rate, in fact, I know it doesn't so I don't see the purpose. And, even if it did, I can't understand why people do it as a rule, not an exception.

If it makes you feel better, I too get hell from certain crowds for choosing not to FF, and it's not because my dog is not doing well. For every FF dog that is performing perfectly, there is a non-FF who is performing just as well. I think those of us who stick to our training methods tend to forget that. We know and believe in what we are surrounded by or what is working for us and has worked for us. It's human nature. I think the big difference between our methods and what often causes opposition is that FF methods can be abusive, even when not intended.

I agree that FF does work. The Kohler method works, too. 100% positive works, too. Lots of methods work. But, people simply choose to motivate their dogs in different ways, and luckily there is a way that works for every person and every dog. "My methods work and are tried and proven!" is something every type of trainer can honestly say with titles and stories to back them up and with stories about how the opposite type of training didn't work or caused a problem. I think anyone with a dog could basically have this conversation to infinity.

This is primarily a pet dog forum and this is a controversial subject, especially outside of the field training circle, so I'm assuming that is why you don't get much in the way of responses.

If you are talking about me in your post, you're right, my experience with FF is minimal. But, my reply to your previous post was more about it being OK to question methods that you don't understand or that you don't believe in (see last sentence of this post). I am still free to have and to post my opinion based on the experience I do have and what I have personally witnessed as well as the many, many discussions I have had with several successful, professional (and non professional) trainers, both for and against FF. I have seen FF'ed dogs fail even the WC (while all the non-FF dogs passed) and I have seen dogs need rehab for a FF and e-collar gone wrong in both field and obedience. But, I've also seen FF'ed dogs be amazing, just like I have seen non-FF'ed dogs be amazing. I have had to make the choice for my own dog and spent several agonizing months doing so. My decision came down to not seeing a reason for the FF. I'm happy with the choice I made, and retrieving stuff is actually the least of our worries.

I've posted this article before, maybe you didn't see it? I would say that it very closely resembles my feelings on the subject. I love this part: We become better trainers by refusing to swallow uncritically what is tossed to us as truth, by developing our powers of empathy and observation, and by searching for better ways to teach and educate the dogs we love.

[TuMicks]

Perhaps a lot (MOST) of the antipathy to FF is the name... FORCE fetch.

IW: Please tell me if I'm wrong here. I don't want to mischaracterize it. But since it is now-a-days done with little actual pain, if any, it seems to be a matter of making the dog somewhat anxious and then showing him how to relieve the anxiety by holding something in his mouth and receiving a great deal of praise from the handler. This, in turn makes the handler his best buddy, the one who ends up giving him the best thing in the world... a worry free retrieve.

And that's what it seems to me to be about. Taking the confusion out of the very complicated process of what we're in the field for. It is the de-nagging step in retriever basics (in my view.) What I have noticed with my dogs is that when FF is completed and they begin real live field work, they seem to come alive. They come running in to deliver to hand and immediately want the next bird. Before FF, they are less focused. Birds are in the air, guns are going off, there's water to jump into... and a young field lab is nothing if not ADHD and bird-crazy.

At least from my limited experience, FF is all about focus and becoming a true team.

I know... let's bag the term "Force Fetch" and rename it "Focused Fetch".

[Labradorks]

Perhaps a lot (MOST) of the antipathy to FF is the name... FORCE fetch.

IW: Please tell me if I'm wrong here. I don't want to mischaracterize it. But since it is now-a-days done with little actual pain, if any, it seems to be a matter of making the dog somewhat anxious and then showing him how to relieve the anxiety by holding something in his mouth and receiving a great deal of praise from the handler. This, in turn makes the handler his best buddy, the one who ends up giving him the best thing in the world... a worry free retrieve.

And that's what it seems to me to be about. Taking the confusion out of the very complicated process of what we're in the field for. It is the de-nagging step in retriever basics (in my view.) What I have noticed with my dogs is that when FF is completed and they begin real live field work, they seem to come alive. They come running in to deliver to hand and immediately want the next bird. Before FF, they are less focused. Birds are in the air, guns are going off, there's water to jump into... and a young field lab is nothing if not ADHD and bird-crazy.

At least from my limited experience, FF is all about focus and becoming a true team.

I know... let's bag the term "Force Fetch" and rename it "Focused Fetch".

FF is not the be all end all, it's a personal preference in training. Focus comes from all sorts of methods, FF and non-FF, pain and no pain, etc. There are many ways of communicating your expectations to your dog. As long as he understands, you're golden. And understanding has a lot of parts, like you said. Yes, a good non-FF retrieve requires more work on my part, more patience, consistency, time, understanding, thinking through problems, etc., but I truly believe my dog and I have benefited from it and the results that I can see are the same as a FF dog at the same age/level, sometimes better, sometimes worse.

[barry581]

Long ago I trained one of my labs for field work, and in general he was a good hunting retriever, but in no way, shape, or form a completion level retriever. I've recently started working with a local group to field train Bruce, and realistically I am a complete novice with all this. I have no experience with force fetch, but I've read a lot concerning the how's and why's you do, and I've discussed it with a few local trainers who do force fetch as part of their training program. I truly believe that if done correctly by a qualified, experienced trainer it could be very beneficial in training a retriever. I can also see that if not done properly, it could be potentially harmful too.

I'm neither for or against force fetch, or even e-collars for that matter. I feel that if used properly, they can be very useful tools in training a retriever. Like most things in life, there is more than one way to accomplish a goal. Just because I choose to do something one way, doesn't make you wrong for doing it the way you choose to do it. At this point, if I feel Bruce would benefit from force fetch training, I would seek out a qualified trainer who has a track record of success with force fetch. But for now, we are just going to work on the basics and see how it goes. I didn't get Bruce for hunting or competitive retriever work, so I have no agenda or time table.


To both Irish Whistler and Labradorks, I enjoy ready both of your posts, and have learned new things, and new thought processes regarding training from both of you.

[ChoppersDad]

I agree with everyone! I was going to send my pup away for professional waterfowl retriever training, but based on good advice from this forum I was persuaded not to do it. My dog is my best friend and pet first. Waterfowl retrieving/hunting is just a hobby for me. If he wants to be a waterfowl retriever, I will do everything in my power to make it happen. If he decides it is not for him, then that is his choice. As soon as my lab is not having fun, then we will do something he enjoys.

Having said that, I've been pretty much following Bill Hillmann's approach to waterfowl retriever training and Chopper is coming along nicely. I have put no pressure on my dog and have always kept the training fun. We are moving along at a comfortable pace and I couldn't be happier taking on the challenge of training my pup myself. We have a bond that will never be broken. My lab will never be a Champion nor is that our goal, but if he brings the ducks back to me when I shoot them, then I will be quite pleased. I just want to hang out with my best friend while I go hunting... Most importantly, I want my dog to have fun!

To each his own!

[POPTOP]

Knowing nothing about training a lab for competition level or working hunting dog level, I have been very interested in what Irishwistler has posted and explained, along with the pictures.

When he posted about force fetch, I cringed and wondered if I wanted to read the post. As an outsider, the word "Force" turned me off big time. Reading and understanding what it meant eased my mind. In no way do I think Irishwistler would do anything to harm TRAD or REV. Unfortunately, I have heard about trainers who are not as gentle or use positive reinforcement.

Like many of you, if I thought there was anything that was being done that hurt/injured the dog either physically or mentally, I would be all over Irishwistler's butt. I felt the same way about a prong collar and e-collar. Then there came a day when, out of need, I was introduced to the prong, how to use it properly and I understood. The prong and e-collar are tools to be used properly to help a dog learn. Again, I am not in any way familiar with training a retriever for field work, but nothing I saw in what Irishwistler said and showed was harmful to the dogs, just another tool to help them learn.

Words from a total outsider.

[IRISHWISTLER]

I imagine if I played the semantics game and called the process "the conditioned retrieve" that many might suddenly feel better about the matter. Truth be told, it would not be the process itself that was changed. I am passionate about retrievers and training them to a high standard, an objective I achieve not through brutality of any type, but rather through confidence building and an exchange of mutual respect betwixt K9 and trainer. One might argue that to negotiate performance outcome over the exchange of "treats" that could certainly lead to obesity, diabetes, and other health related problems is not the humane approach the "clicker and cookie" trainers advocate. I am not fully against the use of edible rewards nor clickers (I use both early on in a pups training and then fade those tools out over time).

As for Labradorks, I fully concur with her that each individual trainer be able to make
personal choices in the training methods that works best for them (providing no actual abuse of an animal is taking place). I do not like to see any method condemned based on perceptions of that method being fueled by heresay and not on actual hands on experience. I understand that this forum is heavily slanted toward the membership being largely a "pet" forum and not one of mainly high performance "field" retrievers, it is for that very reason that I move to open the dialogue with regard to FORCE FETCH (conditiioned retrieve) and to dispell many of the misconceptions surrounding the process. First and foremost, a Lab does NOT have to hunt waterfowl or upland birds to benefit from FORCE FETCH training. I realize fully that not ALL owners seek the same high standards in which to train their retriever(s) to, and that is perfectly OK if it meets your needs and that of
FIDO within the context of your relationship.

Bottom line, this thread has members conversing on the matter in civil dialogue and sharing information, opinions, etc., an exchange that seemingly was avoided as taboo. I hope we hear from many others now that the ball is rolling.

Slainte,
Irishwhistler