Shall the Labrador Retreiver be Jack of all Trades and Master of None?

[TuMicks]

Another way to ask the question is... should the moderate lab be the singular breed club goal. Cut to the chase: My answer is No. But there are reasoned opinions on both sides.

Many people (MOST, perhaps) would not want a driven, high-energy field bred lab. (Having said that... Rocket Dog has been on her bed sleeping most of the day... but I digress.) If anything, the polar opposite would probably be best for families. The absolutely NOT field-bred lab would be best for therapy purposes.

The question in the title occurred to me because I stumbled upon an article about the evolution/revolution in tactical uses for dogs. For most scent work, the Labrador is the preferred animal and field bred labs with their athleticism and energy are the top pick. (The field dog's nose is best, but even in that regard, elite breedings are being developed to enhance the scenting ability even more.) GSDs and Malinois are the go-to breeds for combat applications.

It just seemed to me that having a proving ground (HT's and FT's) that select out the most qualified field dogs for breeding purposes, is good for the breed at large, even if these dogs are not thought to be suitable for most people. Kudos to the breeders who try to integrate the traits into a more moderate dog. But there are good reasons to continue producing litters and testing dogs at the leading edge of the field-dog envelope... for the overall good of the breed.

Just a thought.

Happy T'giving to all.

[dxboon]

Extremism is not good for the breed, Labradors or otherwise. It drives the breed away from what it was meant to be. It doesn't matter if the breed is being developed at the "leading edge" of field work or taken to extremes for other purposes. If people want specialized dogs that is their choice, but IMO it has nothing to do with preserving and bettering the breed.

[Maxx&Emma]

My thoughts are the same as dxboon. I just fail to see any good in breeding a dog to be "extreme", regardless of the purpose.

[dxboon]

Agencies choose Labs for a variety of reasons. Bloodhounds are much better "noses" than Labs, but there are other general traits and factors, including the size of the Lab gene pool, that make Labs desirable for all sorts of agencies and organizations such as Guide Dogs of America. People and the dog sports they participate in are increasingly competitive, so they choose and breed dogs that they feel give them the edge. That's fine, and nobody need apologize for their preferences, but don't try to say it's what's best for the breed as a whole.

[Tanya]

i agree with the above.

I guess the thing is, dogs were bred for sports/jobs needed when they were being developed. labs were never MEANT to run what we call field trials. nor to be the best at them. they were bred for duck hunting (and able to swim in cold waters). That is so far away from what I understand field trials are. So it seems unfair to evaluate a breed on their performance in a sport they were never bred to excel at (not in that way). sorta like saying your lab should be able to herd. (ok a bit of an exageration for sure).

So by breeding labs to excel in field, it's almost created a different dog. almost it's own breed with totally different goals in mind (maybe not TOTALLY if they keep the rest of the easy going friendly temperament - but from my experience with crazy high drive you have to be very careful as temperament is harder to keep).

It's an interesting question for me as I am looking for my next lab, and I want a puppy from a breeder this time. Based on what I want in sport most people tell me to go field lines. but - the more fieldy the line the less they appeal to me look wise. I still...want a lab lab (though smaller). I have nothing against these kennels and some are terrific and breed very competitive dogs, it's just not for me.

With all these new sports we have, you get more and more people breeding mixes or special offshoots of a breed to be more competitive, faster, better. But not sure this is really the best. I mean farmers needed a solid herder but it didn't matter if they were THE BEST herder in their county - just that the dog had good work ethic and did a good job. Now we all want "the best". I was amazing at the entire flyball scene. So many mixes to get more drive, smaller, faster. Makes for dogs that are really not meant to be family pets but sport dogs with sport dog owners. (and I never saw clearances of any kind!)

but that's just my thoughts/opinion

[TuMicks]

Well my T'giving dinner turned out better than I thought it would. (We went to daughter's in-law's place.) Roads were really icy coming home, but all-in-all, a good evening. Hope everyone enjoyed theirs.

Vs. Blood hounds... from what I've heard, they are just not terribly biddable dogs. They're hounds. But their noses are superior to labs. I'll have to find out why labs beat them out in tactical applications. Now I'm curious.

If you are at a FT/HT you'll hear moaning and groaning about the breed club the deficiencies of the breed standard and the politics of it and blah, blah, blah. You can hear the same sort of thing at a conformation event, I'm sure. But I'm starting to believe the split is a blessing not a curse.

For example: I have an acquaintance who is a Curly Coat Retriever fancier. Has impeccable CH lines. She goes all around the nation showing them. Her dogs are gorgeous. But (from what I've heard and seen and from what she has told me) it's very difficult to put even a Senior title on these dogs. That intangible (birdiness or prey drive) has been lost. Now she's trying to breed it back into her lines. And good for her for doing it.

At T'giving dinner, our hosts had two of the sweetest conformation bred labs you ever saw. They didn't look to have a scintilla of field in them. You couldn't get them to chase their own toys. It was the weirdest thing. Throw a toy in our house, and you have an instant 3 dog scrum. Now, I gotta tell you, these were pretty dogs and their sort of looks shouldn't be lost. But... we can't lose drive in the process. Like the tale of the Curly Coat, how do you get it back, once it's gone?

[TuMicks]

i agree with the above.

I guess the thing is, dogs were bred for sports/jobs needed when they were being developed. labs were never MEANT to run what we call field trials. nor to be the best at them. they were bred for duck hunting (and able to swim in cold waters). That is so far away from what I understand field trials are. So it seems unfair to evaluate a breed on their performance in a sport they were never bred to excel at (not in that way). sorta like saying your lab should be able to herd. (ok a bit of an exageration for sure).

So by breeding labs to excel in field, it's almost created a different dog. almost it's own breed with totally different goals in mind (maybe not TOTALLY if they keep the rest of the easy going friendly temperament - but from my experience with crazy high drive you have to be very careful as temperament is harder to keep).

It's an interesting question for me as I am looking for my next lab, and I want a puppy from a breeder this time. Based on what I want in sport most people tell me to go field lines. but - the more fieldy the line the less they appeal to me look wise. I still...want a lab lab (though smaller). I have nothing against these kennels and some are terrific and breed very competitive dogs, it's just not for me.

With all these new sports we have, you get more and more people breeding mixes or special offshoots of a breed to be more competitive, faster, better. But nto sure this is really the best. I mean farmers needed a solid herder but it didn't matter if they were THE BEST herder in their county - just that the dog had good work ethic and did a good job. Now we all want "the best". I was amazing at the entire flyball scene. So many mixes to get more drive, smaller, faster. Makes for dogs that are really not meant to be family pets but sport dogs with sport dog owners. (and I never saw clearances of any kind!)

but that's just my thoughts/opinion

In what sport are you considering running the next lab? Agility? I can see where speed would matter and if speed, then yes, field is where you'll find it. Have you looked into UK field breedings? BTW: Their field trials involve leaping over fences and hedge rows. (Hunting over here is quite different.) It scares the willies out of me to watch some UK training and trialing. But that would probably be another reason to look in that direction. And the Brits are more conscious of aesthetics when they breed. Just a thought.

[Labradorks]

You really should go to a WC or a hunt test put on by a breed club. Conformation Labs DO have birdiness and drive. No, they don't typically vibrate in place and yes, they make excellent house pets, therapy dogs, family pets, obedience/rally dogs, etc. It is not black and white. There are plenty of conformation Labs who probably could not care less about a bird, but it happens with field lines as well. I've heard plenty of stories about, and have seen a couple myself, well-bred field Labs, goldens and poodles who would run out for the bird and refuse it, pick it up by a toe, pee on it, roll in it, eat it, etc., but typically the issues I have seen is that the dog is too hot to get his sh!t together and can't even think. I've seen several field bred Labs not pass the HT while all of the conformation Labs at this particular event did.

Some examples, my Linus is a great example of a dog bred for conformation that loves the field and I don't even really train for it. I basically just hold his collar, let him go and he does the rest. Sure, I've had to train the finishing touches for competition, but if we were hunting for real the job would have gotten done. I have a breeder friend who was one crate short at an event and that dog matrix-style crawled across the tops of the crates and jumped out the window of the van because she couldn't stand hearing the gunshots and not being a part of it. That was a chunky conformation Lab, too. At our breed club's HT this year, all of the conformation dogs passed. Can't say the same for all of the field bred dogs.

Like Tanya said, Labs were bred to be gentleman's hunter. Field trials are for people, not for dogs. So, we breed the dogs to be a certain way that was not how they were intended for our own entertainment/ego. The same thing happens in obedience, which, just like field work, when you get to the upper levels is completely unnatural for the dog. No, there should not be a split and there doesn't have to be a split. A conformation dog that does not retrieve birds should be a fault just like a field Lab that does not adhere to the non-bird standards of the Labrador. IMHO to get a CH a dog should have his WC. You talk like conformation Labs do not have drive or birdiness and that is just not true!

[Tanya]

agility, dock diving, rally whatever they like it (and breeder doesn't oppose). I don't plan to compete at any high level (my own skills are not that great, plus I have no money or time for higher levels even if the dog could do them). so I don't NEED a super crazy fast dog. an in shape well bred lab with drive (say to hunt) should be more than enough for me to have fun with. My only issue with size is personal preference and impact on their body of stuff like agility.

I have zero interest in purely field lines as stated above. I want a moderate lab within standard (but on the lower ends) with drive as the breed "should" have. so yes I absolutely want a breeder that doesn't only do conformation. I understand time and money isn't unlimited so they may not complete in depth in both conformation and field but at least have drive in their dogs and hopefully bred dogs that went on to do well in more competitive venues. I don't mind a bench lab leaning towards fieldy looks but it still has to look "like a lab" if you will (for lack of a better way of putting it.). I believe a well bred lab should have drive/work ethic, they are a sporting breed! like i said I don't agree with EITHER extreme.

I meant more that people are breeding not just to perform "well" in any given venue. They are breeding for harder and harder levels in a sport and being "top of the game". it's not just "doing a job" it seems but doing BETTER, being in the TOP TIER of the job that seems to have the potential to chagne things. are you still going to be as careful about temperament as you work for the FASTEST dog? for the MOST DRIVE? some breeders will try to keep tempermetn others will want the competitive part. Especially with flyball mixes, temperament sorta goes all over the map in order to get drive and speed (not always but often).

[windycanyon]

There are still breeders breeding for the whole package. I evaluated 2 field trial bred litters last week, and have to say, the one litter in particular was VERY nice. Thankfully my friend has been considering overall conformation in her breeding program for ~15 yrs now, so this was 3rd generation for me to evaluate. That said, the stud and his lines have a lot of influence too! Same breeder and circle of training friends are also quick to remind folks that the current FT contenders are very steady, very biddable, even keeled dogs. The pros apparently (at least for the most part) don't LIKE the high rollers they have to beat down.

I think the field side is actually improving in "health" faster than most people here would know. Personally, I like to breed back to field every 3rd generation or so if there is a nice dog available to breed to. I will most certainly be watching the one who sired the litter I really liked.

Anne (PS our turkey day was good too, but it was a little lower key here as my one girl's temperature dropped and I am now on puppy watch! Had a good night's sleep though, for the most part.. I figure tonite will be an all nighter however.)