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  1. #1
    Real Retriever PinkDragon14's Avatar
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    Trainer vs. "Big Box Store" Training

    I was at the dentist's office today and had a conversation with the receptionist about training dogs (she doesn't own a lab, but rescued a 2yr old Dobe). We happened to attend the same Petsmart for training classes (not the same class, but she was enrolled in a later class with the same trainer). We agreed that the trainer did an average job introducing the dog to training and basic commands, but didn't seem to really help "enforce" it during class. She learned from a friend that there is a great trainer about 20mins away that works with the dog and can help owners/dogs connect and work together with training. She's halfway through a class there and said her dog has learned more in 2wks than he had in a 6wk class at Petsmart.

    So, my question is: What are the pros/cons of working with an actual trainer rather than attending a "big box store" training class? I've researched this new trainer more and more and I am close to signing Murphy up. The Petsmart classes didn't do anything for us (he would fall asleep in class, goof around with the other dogs, etc.) and I'd like to try something new. Maybe him being a few months older than he was will help too? I'd like to do therapy work with Murphy, as well as dock diving once he gets a bit older. Obviously, he needs great training to do this (and I need to be "trained" myself too).
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  2. #2
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Ah, well... I can answer that question for you, though you must understand that what goes on at one PetSmart may not be what happens at another.

    Yes, you are probably going to get more bang for your buck at a "professional" trainer's. What happens in a class at PetSmart is lowest common denominator and you can understand why. These "instructors" are not going to tell you anything controversial (like... "wow, I can't believe how bad your timing is." Or, "NEVER do that... it only encourages his bad behavior.") They don't help the store by alienating anyone. And enforcement can be controversial, so they have to go at in in an oblique way, if at all.

    We signed up to get Rocket Dog more accustomed to being around other dogs. And PetSmart was the only place (around here) that I could bring her on a pronged collar. So we got what we paid for. (She already knew her obedience commands from her field training basics. She didn't need to learn here, sit, heel, down, stay, etc.) Plus, the two of us had only ever trained with her wearing an electric collar. Consequently, I needed help learning how to train with other methods.

    I'm not disappointed with our PetSmart experience. It was a good starting point for us. But I also found out that we need more expert help getting Rocket Dog more confident and relaxed around other dogs. We will be consulting a dog behaviorist we found recently.

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  4. #3
    Senior Dog Tanya's Avatar
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    it really comes down to the quality, knowledge and ability to communicate of the trainer. you can get trainers in box stores but it's hit and miss.

    the quality if a trainer makes a big difference to me. they will show you how to train, help with alternatives is necessary, watch you and make recommendations and gives the class tons of general advice and homework.

    but what one gets out of a class also depends how much work the people do between classes

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  6. #4
    Senior Dog Abulafia's Avatar
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    Oh, I can speak to this.

    I never put Hoku in "Big Box Store" classes. Her breeder recommended two local trainers—both about half an hour away—but when I tried to register her at one when we brought her home, I found out that the class was filled and waiting list was unlikely. That was my first wake up.

    So I put her in a local class at a place—not a chain—that was recommended. Not by the breeder, but generally speaking, people speak very highly of it.

    I had her first in a very very simple puppy class where we were taught... a little. Good teachers, mainly, but of uneven quality. Occasionally aggressive puppies who were not always adequately corrected. Nothing dangerous. But it was merely "meh."

    I then missed the second sign up for the breeder-recommended class, and so we did another course at the local place. It was, again, Ok. Little more than Ok. The trainer adored Hoku, and this was the first time it was suggested that she go into therapy work, but: the place was "just fine." I don't think it was the trainer so much as the other owners and their dogs. A lot of them seemed there to try to "control" their dogs rather than to build a relationship.

    We finally—FINALLY—got into the breeder-recommended class. And Hot Holy Hell. These are trainers. They are dog whisperers. They will come and say "don't ever do that again!" (as they smile and say "sorry!"), and don't let dogs get out of control at play time in the barn (simple squirt bottles w/ water), and really understand dogs. I have had one of them correct Hoku's tendency to walk ahead of me (i.e., to pull) with one pass. She took Hoku from me, walked with her up and down a distance of about 25', and by the end, Hoku was just looking up at her for cues. I was there, saw the whole thing—no words, nothing more physical than a body block (leg in front of Hoku, stopping her). I have also seen her fix another dog's tendency to move through a door first—in two minutes.

    This is a real trainer. I had been skeptical, but now I very very happily drive 30 minutes each way, once a week, to this wonderful place. Hoku adores it; she is in love with the trainers (and their dogs, who are Labs), and they love her back. They have supported her therapy dog training, and have supported us the entire time.

    I think that any training is better than no training. But if you can find a good one, who will speak harshly to you, as the human ("don't every do that again," "you did that wrong," "you messed that up; she was doing fine"), and who don't care about the money so much as you doing it right—keep them.
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  8. #5
    Senior Dog Abulafia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanya View Post
    but what one gets out of a class also depends how much work the people do between classes
    YES.

    Also, this trainer? She showed us how to address Hoku's fear of the brush. We just mentioned it at the last class, she took five or so minutes talking w/ us, and then showed Hoku a brush, some peanut butter, and was brushing her. She has a confidence that Hoku feels and responds to.

    Most of the classes run over by ten or so minutes. It's not about the clock, but about the dogs.
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  9. #6
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    What works for one person won't work for another. In a nutshell, you have to look at your goals. My goals are completely different than the normal pet owner's, so there is NO WAY I'd go to a big box store trainer. In fact, when I've been approached by their employees, it's been difficult to remain calm.

    I always urge people to take as many classes as they can under as many EXPERIENCED trainers they can. The trainers don't have to be professionals... some of us volunteer for kennel clubs etc. and have raised / titled more dogs than you can imagine. One size does not fit all when it comes to dog training. Good luck!
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  11. #7
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Everyone here has really good points.

    It sounds like you're not looking for competition obedience, but want something more than the generic six week class with a certificate at the end? If that is the case, then you'll want a class that may ask for payment every six weeks, but doesn't start over at the beginning with new people every six weeks. A competition obedience class may be what you need. I've never seen an ongoing pet dog or non-competition class. But, that doesn't mean they don't exist!

    I've never been to a big box trainer and only seen them in action a couple times as I don't go to those stores very often. I've had a good handful of trainers and learned a lot and also realized the type of trainer that I need for myself. I really liked my last trainer and still consider her a friend, but we outgrew her in a few ways.

    Frankly, my training class is the highlight of my week. We've gone nearly every week over the past 18 months. It is expensive and takes me anywhere from 30-90 minutes to get to, depending on traffic, but I love it and I love my trainer. There is a multi-year waiting list to get into her classes. I got into one class and am waiting for two others. I also take private lessons anywhere from one to two time per month (also on a waiting list). It's a lot of work. It is expensive. And it is time consuming. You really have to be committed.

    Finding the right trainer takes time. I'd watch a class or two and see how things go, what types of methods they use and how the others are doing. You can also ask around about trainers at your local obedience club.

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  13. #8
    Real Retriever PinkDragon14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    Ah, well... I can answer that question for you, though you must understand that what goes on at one PetSmart may not be what happens at another.

    Yes, you are probably going to get more bang for your buck at a "professional" trainer's. What happens in a class at PetSmart is lowest common denominator and you can understand why. These "instructors" are not going to tell you anything controversial (like... "wow, I can't believe how bad your timing is." Or, "NEVER do that... it only encourages his bad behavior.") They don't help the store by alienating anyone. And enforcement can be controversial, so they have to go at in in an oblique way, if at all.

    We signed up to get Rocket Dog more accustomed to being around other dogs. And PetSmart was the only place (around here) that I could bring her on a pronged collar. So we got what we paid for. (She already knew her obedience commands from her field training basics. She didn't need to learn here, sit, heel, down, stay, etc.) Plus, the two of us had only ever trained with her wearing an electric collar. Consequently, I needed help learning how to train with other methods.

    I'm not disappointed with our PetSmart experience. It was a good starting point for us. But I also found out that we need more expert help getting Rocket Dog more confident and relaxed around other dogs. We will be consulting a dog behaviorist we found recently.
    Petsmart was good for Murphy just for socialization...not much else. I was really worried about getting him socialized and it did help (except all he wanted to do was play and sleep...). I think we need "professional help" to help train us and Murphy. He's a great dog don't get me wrong, but it's just his jumping and leash walking that we need help with (and Petsmart was no help for that).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanya View Post
    it really comes down to the quality, knowledge and ability to communicate of the trainer. you can get trainers in box stores but it's hit and miss.

    the quality if a trainer makes a big difference to me. they will show you how to train, help with alternatives is necessary, watch you and make recommendations and gives the class tons of general advice and homework.

    but what one gets out of a class also depends how much work the people do between classes
    I will admit, I didn't do much work with him outside of class. He doesn't listen to me very well (except commands such as "sit", "down", etc.) since I'm not "alpha". I need help establishing myself as that along the way, but it didn't help that he didn't listen to anything. Again, I just wanted some exposure to other dogs/people and possibly some training. It stinks that we didn't get more out of it though and the trainer didn't help us at all. If he was sleeping, she'd be like, "Oh, are you tired? It's okay!" "Are you distracted? Maybe later!" Um...no... I paid ~$100 for this class and I expect you to help train me and the dog! (I know $100 isn't a lot compared to most trainers out there, but at the time, it felt like a fortune just to "train the dog")



    Quote Originally Posted by Abulafia View Post
    Oh, I can speak to this.

    I never put Hoku in "Big Box Store" classes. Her breeder recommended two local trainers—both about half an hour away—but when I tried to register her at one when we brought her home, I found out that the class was filled and waiting list was unlikely. That was my first wake up.

    So I put her in a local class at a place—not a chain—that was recommended. Not by the breeder, but generally speaking, people speak very highly of it.

    I had her first in a very very simple puppy class where we were taught... a little. Good teachers, mainly, but of uneven quality. Occasionally aggressive puppies who were not always adequately corrected. Nothing dangerous. But it was merely "meh."

    I then missed the second sign up for the breeder-recommended class, and so we did another course at the local place. It was, again, Ok. Little more than Ok. The trainer adored Hoku, and this was the first time it was suggested that she go into therapy work, but: the place was "just fine." I don't think it was the trainer so much as the other owners and their dogs. A lot of them seemed there to try to "control" their dogs rather than to build a relationship.

    We finally—FINALLY—got into the breeder-recommended class. And Hot Holy Hell. These are trainers. They are dog whisperers. They will come and say "don't ever do that again!" (as they smile and say "sorry!"), and don't let dogs get out of control at play time in the barn (simple squirt bottles w/ water), and really understand dogs. I have had one of them correct Hoku's tendency to walk ahead of me (i.e., to pull) with one pass. She took Hoku from me, walked with her up and down a distance of about 25', and by the end, Hoku was just looking up at her for cues. I was there, saw the whole thing—no words, nothing more physical than a body block (leg in front of Hoku, stopping her). I have also seen her fix another dog's tendency to move through a door first—in two minutes.

    This is a real trainer. I had been skeptical, but now I very very happily drive 30 minutes each way, once a week, to this wonderful place. Hoku adores it; she is in love with the trainers (and their dogs, who are Labs), and they love her back. They have supported her therapy dog training, and have supported us the entire time.

    I think that any training is better than no training. But if you can find a good one, who will speak harshly to you, as the human ("don't every do that again," "you did that wrong," "you messed that up; she was doing fine"), and who don't care about the money so much as you doing it right—keep them.
    Honestly, the first few months of "Murphy ownership", I was praying that Cesar Milan would show up at my front door. I needed a dog whisperer!! From what the lady told me, this trainer is supposed to be EXCELLENT and that's what I'm hoping for. The lady already had some classes with the trainer and said the difference between Petsmart and this trainer is night and day. I need to be "trained" as well and I'm looking for someone who will work with me. I'd also like to pursue therapy work in the future, so help with that would be awesome. How long are the classes that you attend? I *think* these are an hour. A little off topic, but - how does the trainer help you both with the therapy dog work? What things are discussed/worked on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    Everyone here has really good points.

    It sounds like you're not looking for competition obedience, but want something more than the generic six week class with a certificate at the end? If that is the case, then you'll want a class that may ask for payment every six weeks, but doesn't start over at the beginning with new people every six weeks. A competition obedience class may be what you need. I've never seen an ongoing pet dog or non-competition class. But, that doesn't mean they don't exist!

    I've never been to a big box trainer and only seen them in action a couple times as I don't go to those stores very often. I've had a good handful of trainers and learned a lot and also realized the type of trainer that I need for myself. I really liked my last trainer and still consider her a friend, but we outgrew her in a few ways.

    Frankly, my training class is the highlight of my week. We've gone nearly every week over the past 18 months. It is expensive and takes me anywhere from 30-90 minutes to get to, depending on traffic, but I love it and I love my trainer. There is a multi-year waiting list to get into her classes. I got into one class and am waiting for two others. I also take private lessons anywhere from one to two time per month (also on a waiting list). It's a lot of work. It is expensive. And it is time consuming. You really have to be committed.

    Finding the right trainer takes time. I'd watch a class or two and see how things go, what types of methods they use and how the others are doing. You can also ask around about trainers at your local obedience club.
    Yep, I'm not looking for anything fancy - just iron out the problems and raise a great family dog (possibly dock diving and therapy work, but nothing too fancy). They would probably ban this coconut head from any competitions/shows LOL

    A mistake I made (and will admit/have admitted to) was not working with him enough outside of class. I guess you can say I wasn't committed, but it didn't help that he didn't want to cooperate or listen while I attempted training. This time around, I'm more motivated to get this done and shape him into a great dog.

    Dumb question - but do you think the clubs around here would have some kind of recommended trainers list online (or someone there would have a list)? You mentioned asking about the trainers, but to be honest, I don't know much about the clubs. I looked at their breeders list, but it was really outdated (and most sites didn't exist) when I was searching for a dog.
    ~Alyssa
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  14. #9
    Senior Dog Tanya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkDragon14 View Post
    I will admit, I didn't do much work with him outside of class. He doesn't listen to me very well (except commands such as "sit", "down", etc.) since I'm not "alpha". I need help establishing myself as that along the way, but it didn't help that he didn't listen to anything. Again, I just wanted some exposure to other dogs/people and possibly some training. It stinks that we didn't get more out of it though and the trainer didn't help us at all. If he was sleeping, she'd be like, "Oh, are you tired? It's okay!" "Are you distracted? Maybe later!" Um...no... I paid ~$100 for this class and I expect you to help train me and the dog! (I know $100 isn't a lot compared to most trainers out there, but at the time, it felt like a fortune just to "train the dog")



    Honestly, the first few months of "Murphy ownership", I was praying that Cesar Milan would show up at my front door. I needed a dog whisperer!! From what the lady told me, this trainer is supposed to be EXCELLENT and that's what I'm hoping for. The lady already had some classes with the trainer and said the difference between Petsmart and this trainer is night and day. I need to be "trained" as well and I'm looking for someone who will work with me. I'd also like to pursue therapy work in the future, so help with that would be awesome. How long are the classes that you attend? I *think* these are an hour. A little off topic, but - how does the trainer help you both with the therapy dog work? What things are discussed/worked on?


    Yep, I'm not looking for anything fancy - just iron out the problems and raise a great family dog (possibly dock diving and therapy work, but nothing too fancy). They would probably ban this coconut head from any competitions/shows LOL

    A mistake I made (and will admit/have admitted to) was not working with him enough outside of class. I guess you can say I wasn't committed, but it didn't help that he didn't want to cooperate or listen while I attempted training. This time around, I'm more motivated to get this done and shape him into a great dog.

    Dumb question - but do you think the clubs around here would have some kind of recommended trainers list online (or someone there would have a list)? You mentioned asking about the trainers, but to be honest, I don't know much about the clubs. I looked at their breeders list, but it was really outdated (and most sites didn't exist) when I was searching for a dog.
    First off - Ceasar Milan is not a dog expert nor a trainer. He has no education in dog training or actual knowledge of how dogs think/learn. He is a TV celebrity. Please read up on other trainers who have spent time learning about dogs and how to train and what works

    It's not that he does,t see you as "alpha". it's that you don't practice and probably don't make a habit of training a command fully then insisting it always be listened to (letting them get away with things). it's not about the dog "not respecting you". it's the dog not knowing what you expect and knowing from experience he doesn't have to listen (as it doesn't "matter" big picture).

    Now why doesn't he listen - could be a few factors. Possibly patience and "mind frame" if you are going in "excepting" he won't listen. It's a combative approach. For example, if I don't go into training sessions with Penny relaxed and calm, they go downhill before they start. The second I am frustrated I have to stop it because she COMPLETELY shuts down. In your case he just "won't listen" but it's the same "issue". Alternatively, you may not be clear in what you are asking nor using appropriate reward. Or working in too high a distraction zone. ALL these things I think a real good trainer will be able to help with and point out.

    Some good experienced knowledgeable trainers:
    Sophia Yin: Animal Behaviorist | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS
    Ian Dunbar: Dog Star Daily
    Victoria Stilwell: Victoria Stilwell Positively | The Official Victoria Stilwell Website
    Patricia McConnell: Patricia McConnell PH.D. | McConnell Publishing Inc.
    Leslie McDevitt: Leslie McDevitt: Control Unleashed®: Home Page

    I think you really need to find a good qualified experienced trainer and commit to a class (including working daily on homework).

    As for a list of recommended trainers, there are a few lists of people qualified thru a few groups.
    Certification for professional dog trainers and behavior consultants
    Association of Professional Dog Trainers

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  16. #10
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Did you try search engines for dog trainers in your town? I'll bet there are quite a few that are advertising on line... but even if there are not any in your town, I agree with what Labradorks said, it's worth driving a bit of distance to work with a good one.

    I think your goals for yourself and your dog are quite reasonable and I'm confident a good trainer can help you out. A few things I'd like to comment on:

    1) A couple of times you mentioned that Murphy didn't listen to you and he didn't cooperate with you. Actually, he was listening, and cooperating. The issue was you weren't communicating what you wanted in a way he understood. If you gave a command... and he didn't do it... and then you gave it again... he just learned that he need not follow along with directions the first time. He heard what you said and learned from it. Dogs are learning all the time. Usually they are learning that we talk a lot and (some of us) increase our volume as we go along. (I am TERRIBLE about this. I start repeating commands, snapping my fingers, patting my leg... OMG... when I think about it, she probably thinks I'm doing some sort of weird vaudeville act.)

    2) You said that maybe Murphy can profit from a better training environment in a few months when he's more mature. See comment above. He's learning right now. So the longer you go with no instruction, the more things he's learning... that you'd rather he did not. The earlier you train/begin training a young dog, the better.

    3) If you canNOT get into a suitable class very soon, I think you should gird your loins and tell yourself that you may not be able to do EVERYTHING (related to training) but that doesn't mean you can't do SOMETHING. And yes you can! You do not have to be alpha. Murphy doesn't have to submit to the she-wolf. All he has to do is learn to listen to you. And there are a lot of ways to improve his hearing. (If I open the fridge and peel back the wrapper on a string-cheese, mine can hear it very well.) So give it some thought, work on just one or two things at a time. Get a book with concrete suggestions (I'm sure there are lots of them referenced here.)

    Good luck.

 



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