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  1. #1
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Behaviorist assessment

    Vis. Rocket Dog's response to other dogs.

    In a controlled environment, the behaviorist had me sit RD, then she brought a dog (first a male) toward her. RD sniffed the air before he was very close, showing curiosity. As the dog/handler got closer, RD scooted (creeped, while still technically sitting) in front of me. It was at this point when she began to growl just a little, because of the whole personal space issue. (Whether because he was approaching her or vice versa, there was encroachment.)

    The second time with another dog (a female, formerly feral and still somewhat reactive) I put RD on a sit and kept her there. It was very interesting. Both dogs looked at each other and then turned their heads looking away. (Avoidance.)

    So, no... she is not classically dog aggressive. The opinion of both behaviorist is that RD lacks social skills and that these could be taught and practiced.

    I learned other things tonight. Leaned a command about teaching focus. I know it sounds weird, but in the field, we want the dog to look OUT, (marking birds) not at us. So this is not a skill I've ever taught or known how to use. I also learned that I DOWN for RD cannot be in a coiled, sphinx-like posture, but that I need to insist that she lie on one hip, in a more relaxed position.

    So it was a good night and the ladies were very nice.

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  3. #2
    Senior Dog Abulafia's Avatar
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    Interesting. How was RD socialized w/ others while young?

    Hoku was pretty thoroughly socialized, and focus was something we were taught to teach her early on. If any dog or person comes up, we can say "look! Right here!" and she will focus just on us, as another person or dog walks by.

    I can see how a field dog would want to look OUT all the time.

    So glad that you learn more about RD, and hopefully this will help.
    Hidden Content Hokule'a ("Hoku") / b. 06.08.15

  4. #3
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    There are many dogs who were never socialized that, as adults, do really well with other dogs (though they can be a little over the top excited, more of an irritation versus a problem). And, dogs that were properly socialized that are aggressive. Genetics is huge.

    As far as the focus goes, I taught it starting when he was a tiny puppy and given that he thinks I hung the moon, he stares at me in obedience training like an obsessed stalker about 95% of the time. I have not ever asked him to mark or to look away from me in the field nor did I train it. They know the difference. You won't have a problem.

    I have a mark command for obedience training (go outs, for example) that has come in handy at the line, but it's not because he is focusing on me!

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  6. #4
    Senior Dog Snowshoe's Avatar
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    That sounds very encouraging. Did they say anything about RD feeling trapped on the leash when the other dog is loose?

    It's interesting that with the first dog RD crept in front of you. Not behind you for protection.
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  7. #5
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    I agree with Labradorks that a lot of this could indeed be genetic. When you're looking for a field dog, all you can do is ask about the sire and the dam and I was told they were really sweet, family raised dogs in homes with older people (sire) and young children (dam.) And naturally, I knew they are FC (dam) and FC/AFC (sire) which means they are/were trained around other dogs, and of course have to honor another working dog. But that leaves a huge amount unknown and unknowable.

    Aside: There are in field work, what are called "truck dogs". This usually implies dogs that pretty much spend their careers being campaigned by a pro, and when not at a trial, live in a training kennel. It also usually implies a dog with no "off switch". So, though I was looking for a high-octane pedigree, I made sure that neither sire nor dam were "truck dogs."

    I take responsibility for what was probably inadequate socialization... sorta. She came to our home in December (21st, to be exact) and in the dead of winter I wasn't really getting her out that much. But her issue is other dogs, and that, I don't get. She has spent her entire life around the two other labs here, and the dogs we train with. She's pretty cool with them.

    I don't understand why she would scoot toward a dog... (who was leashed and pretty much being heeled in front of her) and then when the other dog came to a sit, why would she scoot toward him, then begin growling? The behaviorist sorta thinks she is "claiming the neutral ground" because I am not. IOW, she thinks she's alpha with respect to me and she assumes it's her job. She may actually be a beta-type dog that is fearful of more dominant or reactive dogs. So, that would put her in a conflict when other dogs approach.

    It's really helpful to get some expert assessments. If anyone has a similar problem, I would say it's worth a few bucks to help you understand and help your dog.

  8. #6
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    It’s not always inadequate socialization ... some dogs just aren’t as social and interested in other dogs as others. Chloe was socialized plenty, but she has very little interest in other dogs (outside her family) and gets easily annoyed with them - she’s ok with a very brief sniff hello but if the other dog insists on prolonging the interaction, she can get snippy ... so I make sure to manage the situation. We’ve never had any serious incidents, but I do make a point of stepping in to get her away from the other dog (or vice versa) if it isn’t taking her hints. She’s more tolerant of dogs she knows well, but still usually has no particular interest in greeting or playing. I’ve been told that this “aloofness” may go back to her maternal great-grandfather, but I don’t know for sure. Over the years, with me working with her, protecting her and rewarding her for tolerant behavior she has gotten better but is still fundamentally not interested in other dogs ... which really helps her as a performance dog as it eliminates a major source of distraction, LOL.

    Both of her puppies have received the same amount/type of socialization and they are VERY different when it comes to other dogs. Sassy is like her mother - no real interest in interacting with dogs outside her immediate family, and she can be a little afraid of strange dogs (although that is getting better with time and training). Cookie on the other hand LOVES other dogs - she wants to play with everyone she meets - more of a typical Lab. Since the environment was pretty similar for both, I have to think most of it is genetics.

    Regarding what your behaviorist said, I don’t think it is as much she thinks she is alpha to you in general, but she clearly doesn’t trust you to protect her from the other dog getting into her space, which may be something you can work on - I think that’s what’s made all the difference with Chloe - she trusts me to take care of things. When I am out running with her, something as simple as putting her on the side away from another dog (so if it is coming up on my left, I switch her to the right or vice versa) is enough to let her completely ignore it, even if it is barking and lunging at her (which normally she would feel the need to reciprocate).
    Annette

    Cookie (HIT HC Jamrah's Legally Blonde, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015
    Sassy (HIT Jamrah's Blonde Ambition, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015

    Chloe (HIT HC OTCH Windsong's Femme Fatale, UDX4, OM6, RE) 6/7/2009

    And remembering:

    Scully (HC Coventry's Truth Is Out There, UD, TD, RN) 4/14/1996 - 6/30/2011
    Mulder (Coventry's I Want To Believe, UD, RN, WC) 5/26/1999 - 4/22/2015

    And our foster Jolie (Windsong's Genuine Risk, CDX) 5/26/1999 - 3/16/2014

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  10. #7
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    I think you are correct and what you describe sounds like what is going on.

    It would be nice, if I could easily step in front of RD when other dogs approach. But she is thoroughly schooled to be at heel, no matter what. It is like a pas de deux, she is conditioned to move with me. NOW, having said that, I think the lessons I'm taking with the behaviorist will give me some tools to use to communicate with her about her position relative to mine, especially when other dogs are approaching.

  11. #8
    Senior Dog Snowshoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    I think you are correct and what you describe sounds like what is going on.

    It would be nice, if I could easily step in front of RD when other dogs approach. But she is thoroughly schooled to be at heel, no matter what. It is like a pas de deux, she is conditioned to move with me. NOW, having said that, I think the lessons I'm taking with the behaviorist will give me some tools to use to communicate with her about her position relative to mine, especially when other dogs are approaching.
    But, in your OP you say RD is creeping in front of you. So she is Not staying in heel. Couldn't you pick a new word, set up some new training and teach her there are times she has to stay behind you?

    In Rally we did several things with the dog behind us. Circle. SIT while owner keeps walking then catch up. Owner leaves dog at a Sit and walks on. Changes on the fly from heeling on the left to heeling on the right with the dog crossing over in front or behind us.
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  13. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowshoe View Post
    But, in your OP you say RD is creeping in front of you. So she is Not staying in heel. Couldn't you pick a new word, set up some new training and teach her there are times she has to stay behind you?

    In Rally we did several things with the dog behind us. Circle. SIT while owner keeps walking then catch up. Owner leaves dog at a Sit and walks on. Changes on the fly from heeling on the left to heeling on the right with the dog crossing over in front or behind us.
    Yes, believe me, when I say “HEEL” Chloe is glued to my side and moves with me no matter what (competition Obedience heeling is MUCH more precise than anything you will see in the field or other venues), but she is not always supposed to be heeling ... dogs can learn different “modes” of being with you without ruining their ability to heel.
    Annette

    Cookie (HIT HC Jamrah's Legally Blonde, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015
    Sassy (HIT Jamrah's Blonde Ambition, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015

    Chloe (HIT HC OTCH Windsong's Femme Fatale, UDX4, OM6, RE) 6/7/2009

    And remembering:

    Scully (HC Coventry's Truth Is Out There, UD, TD, RN) 4/14/1996 - 6/30/2011
    Mulder (Coventry's I Want To Believe, UD, RN, WC) 5/26/1999 - 4/22/2015

    And our foster Jolie (Windsong's Genuine Risk, CDX) 5/26/1999 - 3/16/2014

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  15. #10
    Senior Dog Abulafia's Avatar
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    So, it sounds like a combination of her genetics, and your socialization. So from here out, your option is retraining.

    I agree that if she's creeping in front of you, she is not staying at heel. I know what our trainer would advise, but I'm wondering what yours did.

    Hoku is ridiculously well socialized—she had met more than 120 people by her third week with us, as well as a small number of safe dogs—but she is not interested in most dogs. She has a couple friends, but she's not dog-focused. When we encounter a dog on a walk. we generally move her to the side and tell he "wait," and she ignores them until they pass, even if they are reactive.
    Hidden Content Hokule'a ("Hoku") / b. 06.08.15

 



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