Reinforcing here with e-collar when not training

[teej89]

Alright guys so boomer is just shy of a yr, one week away actually and he recently has started lifting his leg and marking so he's going thru some developments. Anywho... recently he started to be like "screw you" when we call him in after we took him out to go to the bathroom. He doesn't always do it but also he'll bolt when we get outta the truck after coming home from somewhere and go search for bushes then he'll just hang out in the yard and I can say here all i want and he won't come in. What I can do is yell sit and he'll sit then I approach him and put the lead on and walk him in.

Now when we're training and he has his e-collar on he's a champ. He can be running free wherever or swimming and I'll yell here or give him a whistle and he comes right back. Should I start taking him out back with his e-collar on? And if I give him a here and he doesn't listen then do here *nick* here. I'm just making sure this isn't a bad idea introducing the e-collar when we're not training but i guess essentially we're training on obedience.


Thanks guys!

[Labradorks]

Sounds like he is collar wise to me, but e-collar users might have a better idea of whether or not that is true. I don't know...I think it's a slippery slope to have to use an e-collar to reinforce all behaviors. This is why I don't train my dogs using an "or else" method, because they may only mind when you have that reinforcement right then and there. Same goes for food reinforcement. While I do reward the dog with food, I also reward with praise, pets and play reserved for reward. That way, if I don't have food or am in the ring, I don't miss out on an opportunity to reward my dog. I also train them to want to do what I ask, which is the foundation of our training relationship.

I'd put a long line on the dog in the yard and keep him leashed when in going in/out of the vehicle, at the very least, for safety's sake (when it comes to exiting the vehicle). Do this for a long time and create a habit. Also, call him to you, praise him -- pets, food, toy, etc. -- then send him back out. I think it's important for them to understand that just because they are coming back to you, the fun isn't over, and, in fact, they get praise/pets/food PLUS they get to go back to what they were doing. Win/win.

He's also going through adolescence/sexual maturity too, so naturally you are going to have to have to work through it, which may mean adjusting training for a bit or being on a more NILIF type of plan for a little while. He'll get through it. Labs take a while to mature. Make sure that you're not getting lax with him in training. It's common for people to consider their dogs trained at one or even two years old and go into management mode before the dog is really ready for that stage.

[TuMicks]

So, I'm assuming that he's collar conditioned and all of that, yes?

Around the house, I think you can be creative... I'm not ashamed of yelling "cookie!" instead of "here". (Especially last airing before bed. I don't want to stand with the door open when it's subfreezing, and I don't want to walk out in the back yard and step on a fresh one in the dark... so... "cookie!") A lot of it has to do with the stakes involved. At 9 PM, when I'm in my nightgown, the stakes just aren't that high for me.

Vis. the e-collar on HERE. It sounds like when it comes to the backyard, you're trying to establish a new standard (in that setting.) The problem with the e-collar is that the stimulus is not recognized by the dog as having to do with you. It's impersonal and sort of drops from the blue. I would tend to reteach HERE (1) in the backyard (2) every time the command is given and (3) DIRECTLY HERE. Probably letting him drag a long line like Labradorks suggested. But the main thing is... don't put up with a slow recall unless that's the standard you're going to settle for.

When he gets it that HERE means HERE... RIGHT NOW... 'CAUSE I SAID SO, then I'd do structured recall using the e-collar. (Here-nick-here... using the intensity necessary to get him to hustle in to your side.)

Again, you gotta decide what matters to you. All the obedience in the field matters a lot to me and we are pretty firm on our standards. I don't like my dog to bolt from the car (it's a safety thing.) So that means SIT until I tell you to HERE/SIT then HEEL in to the house. Otherwise, in our backyard... "cookie!"

[EvanG]

After you have e-collar conditioned your dog to that command, you should have an activated collar on him anytime he's out. It's far better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. It's a standard now. Keep it that way.

EvanG

[teej89]

After you have e-collar conditioned your dog to that command, you should have an activated collar on him anytime he's out. It's far better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. It's a standard now. Keep it that way.

EvanG

very good point, thanks!

[teej89]

So, I'm assuming that he's collar conditioned and all of that, yes?

Around the house, I think you can be creative... I'm not ashamed of yelling "cookie!" instead of "here". (Especially last airing before bed. I don't want to stand with the door open when it's subfreezing, and I don't want to walk out in the back yard and step on a fresh one in the dark... so... "cookie!") A lot of it has to do with the stakes involved. At 9 PM, when I'm in my nightgown, the stakes just aren't that high for me.

Vis. the e-collar on HERE. It sounds like when it comes to the backyard, you're trying to establish a new standard (in that setting.) The problem with the e-collar is that the stimulus is not recognized by the dog as having to do with you. It's impersonal and sort of drops from the blue. I would tend to reteach HERE (1) in the backyard (2) every time the command is given and (3) DIRECTLY HERE. Probably letting him drag a long line like Labradorks suggested. But the main thing is... don't put up with a slow recall unless that's the standard you're going to settle for.

When he gets it that HERE means HERE... RIGHT NOW... 'CAUSE I SAID SO, then I'd do structured recall using the e-collar. (Here-nick-here... using the intensity necessary to get him to hustle in to your side.)

Again, you gotta decide what matters to you. All the obedience in the field matters a lot to me and we are pretty firm on our standards. I don't like my dog to bolt from the car (it's a safety thing.) So that means SIT until I tell you to HERE/SIT then HEEL in to the house. Otherwise, in our backyard... "cookie!"

I never thought of it like that, I may get him on the cookie thought and have some treats on hand when doing it. THanks for you input!

Also I took him out last night w/ the collar on and he listened fine... it's his selective "i don't have my ecollar on" hearing lol

[teej89]

Sounds like he is collar wise to me, but e-collar users might have a better idea of whether or not that is true. I don't know...I think it's a slippery slope to have to use an e-collar to reinforce all behaviors. This is why I don't train my dogs using an "or else" method, because they may only mind when you have that reinforcement right then and there. Same goes for food reinforcement. While I do reward the dog with food, I also reward with praise, pets and play reserved for reward. That way, if I don't have food or am in the ring, I don't miss out on an opportunity to reward my dog. I also train them to want to do what I ask, which is the foundation of our training relationship.

I'd put a long line on the dog in the yard and keep him leashed when in going in/out of the vehicle, at the very least, for safety's sake (when it comes to exiting the vehicle). Do this for a long time and create a habit. Also, call him to you, praise him -- pets, food, toy, etc. -- then send him back out. I think it's important for them to understand that just because they are coming back to you, the fun isn't over, and, in fact, they get praise/pets/food PLUS they get to go back to what they were doing. Win/win.

He's also going through adolescence/sexual maturity too, so naturally you are going to have to have to work through it, which may mean adjusting training for a bit or being on a more NILIF type of plan for a little while. He'll get through it. Labs take a while to mature. Make sure that you're not getting lax with him in training. It's common for people to consider their dogs trained at one or even two years old and go into management mode before the dog is really ready for that stage.

I have a 50ft lead however our backyard is filled with trees lol it'd be a matter of seconds of the zoomies and he'd be like a fly caught in a spider web hahaha

I will start working on the reward with food and treats. I've decided I'm not going to use his e-collar outside of his field training.

[TuMicks]

I use the cookies with our house lab, to be honest. Such a sweet guy. The two girls that we use in the field, they answer up pretty fast on HERE. Again... it's about the stakes you put on the behavior. My concern if the two girls were slow to return to HERE would be that they would give me a similar response in the field. So for them the stakes are higher.

[zd262]

It sounds to me like you need to make a choice: Do you want to have the e-collar on all the time? If yes, then have him wear the e-collar whenever he is outside and sounds like your problem is solved. If no, then you need to re-teach here using a long-line and treats.

It seems like it is mostly e-collar conditioning causing this problem, Boomer knows when it's on or off, but it could also be the environment. A lot of labs are very "on" when training (obedience or field), as you say Boomer is. This means that they are more likely to exhibit the appropriate behaviors because they understand more what's expected of them. However when you're not training, and it is a one-off command in what seems like a low-stakes, low-reward scenario (for the dog), they're not as likely to comply, especially if they are younger and still in training. As Labradorks said, this is where to make sure you're not getting lax in your training. Yes, taking him to the field and doing formal training is good, but you also need to practice the same commands in a variety of random settings at random intervals.

[doubledip1]

I'll still keep the collar on Luna for off leash hikes but I don't bring the remote with me.

Boomer's almost a year old, sounds like he's not trustworthy yet and still in that asshole adolescent stage.