Stop

[TuMicks]

I watched the video from WKC and it was really interesting. As a non-conformation person, I have a question. I'm asking more of less for a historical perspective.

Strictly from an aesthetic perspective, I don't like the pronounced 90 degree angle between the nasal bone to the skull. It appears to me to highly resemble that of a Rottweiler. (Yes, yes... I know the criticism about field labs having heads like Salukis, the nose they can put down a coke bottle and on and on. A not unwarranted critique. I get that. We could go tit for tat but I would rather not.) I think Rocket Dog (my avatar) has a pretty face. I am not making that claim for the rest of her. But at least her head, to me is elegant. (Her body is elegant, but only in motion. Standing still... not so much.)

Is there a form-function rationale for this pronounced stop? I hope it doesn't get any more extreme because then you begin to create a neanderthal brow line, God forbid.

Now, having said all that, here is one of my all time favorite artist's impressions of a classic field Labrador...


It's a print hanging on my wall, (called "Ready to Return" and I wish I knew who the artist was.) You cannot appreciate how beautiful the colors are from this poor copy. This dog shows a pronounced stop, but I think it has more to do with the ear position, the impression the artist wanted to convey of hyper-alertness, giving the sense of barely constrained kinetic energy, as if the dog is about to ball-the-jack back to the hunter.

Anyhow, I would like any opinions or insights you can give me about head shape, snout to skull ratio and all that.

[TuMicks]

Nope, nope nope...

I looked at the illustrated Breed Standard

https://www.thelabradorclub.com/uploa...oStand2002.pdf

and reviewed the video again. It's not the stop, per se. It's something else and I'm trying to put my finger on it. In the fairly extensive head studies shown in the standard, it seems to have to do with the way the skull line extends from the stop. I think the skull is supposed to run a parallel line to the nasal bone. (If you look at the artists version in the print, and the head studies in the standard, that parallel line is absolutely clear.) The skull line is not supposed to be rounded. But... trying to view moving targets in the video, it's as if the desire (by breeders/judges) to get that broad, bold look, has allowed the skull to get rounder as it's gotten broader.

I don't know... the attractive head is chiseled, but still sleek. There's something coarse about the show head and I cannot tell what it is.

[Labradorks]

Some are overdone, for sure, and like you pointed out, some Labs look more like a greyhound, also overdone but in the opposite way. Not every single thing in regards to a dog's build is form and function, whether a field or conformation bred Lab. Kind eyes, for example, are probably not important when it comes to form and function, but it's still a breed standard and certainly does not hurt the dog's ability to do his job. You may like your dog's head, but that had nothing to do with the standard, just personal preference, and you are certainly allowed to have a preference!

According to the standard:

"...a clean-cut head with broad back skull and moderate stop; powerful jaws; and its "kind" friendly eyes, expressing character, intelligence and good temperament."

and...

"Head

• Skull - The skull should be wide; well developed but without exaggeration. The skull and foreface should be on parallel planes and of approximately equal length. There should be a moderate stop-the brow slightly pronounced so that the skull is not absolutely in a straight line with the nose. The brow ridges aid in defining the stop. The head should be clean-cut and free from fleshy cheeks; the bony structure of the skull chiseled beneath the eye with no prominence in the cheek. The skull may show some median line; the occipital bone is not conspicuous in mature dogs. Lips should not be squared off or pendulous, but fall away in a curve toward the throat. A wedge-shape head, or a head long and narrow in muzzle and back skull is incorrect as are massive, cheeky heads. The jaws are powerful and free from snippiness
• Nose - The nose should be wide and the nostrils well-developed. The nose should be black, on black or yellow dogs, and brown on chocolates. Nose color fading to a lighter shade is not a fault. A thoroughly pink nose or one lacking in any pigment is a disqualification. Teeth - The teeth should be strong and regular with a scissors bite; the lower teeth just behind, but touching the inner side of the upper incisors. A level bite is acceptable, but not desirable. Undershot, overshot, or misaligned teeth are serious faults. Full dentition is preferred. Missing molars or pre-molars are serious faults.
• Ears - The ears should hang moderately close to the head, set rather far back, and somewhat low on the skull; slightly above eye level. Ears should not be large and heavy, but in proportion with the skull and reach to the inside of the eye when pulled forward. Eyes - Kind, friendly eyes imparting good temperament, intelligence and alertness are a hallmark of the breed. They should be of medium size, set well apart, and neither protruding nor deep set. Eye color should be brown in black and yellow Labradors, and brown or hazel in chocolates. Black, or yellow eyes give a harsh expression and are undesirable. Small eyes, set close together or round prominent eyes are not typical of the breed. Eye rims are black in black and yellow Labradors; and brown in chocolates. Eye rims without pigmentation is a disqualification."

[dxboon]

Nope, nope nope...

I looked at the illustrated Breed Standard

https://www.thelabradorclub.com/uploa...oStand2002.pdf

and reviewed the video again. It's not the stop, per se. It's something else and I'm trying to put my finger on it. In the fairly extensive head studies shown in the standard, it seems to have to do with the way the skull line extends from the stop. I think the skull is supposed to run a parallel line to the nasal bone. (If you look at the artists version in the print, and the head studies in the standard, that parallel line is absolutely clear.) The skull line is not supposed to be rounded. But... trying to view moving targets in the video, it's as if the desire (by breeders/judges) to get that broad, bold look, has allowed the skull to get rounder as it's gotten broader.

I don't know... the attractive head is chiseled, but still sleek. There's something coarse about the show head and I cannot tell what it is.

You have a preference for fieldy heads, and that's your prerogative. There are certainly some coarse heads in the breed, just like there are snipey heads. The head of a Lab should be strong and powerful to help it carry large game birds. The skull shouldn't be round, but it shouldn't be flat either. One of my breed mentors (a judge of the breed and others in the sporting group), describes it as slightly arched.

There are many beautiful, clean, elegant heads in the show ring. They clearly aren't your cup of tea, which is fine. When I look at your print I see a Patterdale Terrier, not a Lab.

[TuMicks]

Now I have to research Patterdale Terriers!!!



In the artist's print, you have a lab with the ears up. This is a Patterdale with the ears up. I think the ears are placed higher (more forward)on the terrier's skull such that it loses any lab-like character. His little snout/jaw is hardly long enough to hold a goose with any authority. But having looked at a lot of pictures, I take your point.

But Labradorks quoted from the illustrated standard and the profile head studies in that multi-page document and descriptions several times insist on skull line being parallel to the snout, or nasal bone and has the geometry shown in some detail.

I wish we could cross these lines a bit. I wonder what would happen if AKC breed judges were required to attend AKC HT Judging Seminars and events, and vice versa. Maybe the problem is that our breed is in the hands of Judges (from both sides) who are not well rounded.

BTW: Does AKC (or rather the Labrador Retriever Breed Club) require any particular education or preparation for conformation judges?

[Labradorks]

I wish we could cross these lines a bit. I wonder what would happen if AKC breed judges were required to attend AKC HT Judging Seminars and events, and vice versa. Maybe the problem is that our breed is in the hands of Judges (from both sides) who are not well rounded.

You should go to a conformation show (or two, or three or more) where you will see a variety of Lab heads. If you just look online, you're only going to see a tiny percentage of what is winning in the ring.

Judging dogs is not like doing math. Sorry! There is no definitive answer. Personal preference and trends have and will always play a part. Things are different than they were 50 years ago and in 50 years they are going to be different than they are today. If you were a conformation judge, you might choose dogs that you prefer and, for example, if you started putting field bred Labs in the ribbons and that became a trend, the "other half" would be complaining about lack of coat, among other things.

Sometimes you seem really defensive about your dog and whether or not she meets the breed standard. You are allowed to like what you like. It does not make you wrong.

[Shelley]

Regarding the stop, the prominent brow ridge created by the moderate stop protects the eyes, (from dense brush, bird wings flapping in their face, etc...) and also provides unobstructed vision, so form does follow function per the breed standard/blueprint for our breed. :-)
I prefer the look of the conformation bred Labrador's head, you prefer a more fieldy look, that is your choice. :-)

AKC conformation judges are put through rigorous education and training, and testing for each breed they are approved to judge. Judges have to meet a certain set of criteria and breed involvement before they can apply to become a judge, and once they pass the application process, are Provisional (with an AKC representative watching you closely) for a set amount of time. Usually one becomes a judge in the dog breed they are involved in, and may or may not progress to other breeds. You have to pass an arduous test (both written and hands on with an AKC representative watching you closely) on each breed's breed standard, and memorize all of it's DQ's and quirks. One of my breed mentors is an AKC judge, and she has added a few breeds to her list over the years, and it is not easy to become approved.

[barry581]

Well now you've done it, this is the first time a long while that I had to dig out "THE DUAL PURPOSE LABRADOR" by Mary Roslin-Williams.

Chapter 8 "Type Part 2 - Particular"

"The head (fig 4)is very important and should give an impression or great kindness and generosity. Anything sharp, mean or angulated detracts from type, and the head should not be pinched in any way. The muzzle should be wide and the lips well padded over the canine teeth, giving a rounded appearance. The nose bone should be broad and level right to the nose end, ending in good wide nostrils. Both the muzzle and whole head should look as though it would lie on top of the water broadways when swimming, not cutting vertically into the water like the prow of a ship, i.e. it should be broader overall than it is deep. This width carried right through to the generous nose end is very important, but of equal, indeed paramount importance, is there relation of the plane of the skull to that of the nose bone (fig 4a).

The nose bone takes an upward curve just in front of the eyes and forms a distinctive step, almost at right angles to the plane of the nose, which is known as the 'stop'. This stop must be distinct in a Labrador, and form a perceptible break between the nose and the skull. It is vital for type that the plane of the skull should be very nearly parallel to the plane of the nose-bone. This is all important."

MRW goes on to talk about why any angles other than parallel are wrong causing the dog to look like a flat coat or pointer depending on the angles. She also talks about how the muzzle should look and why. Too much for a lousy typer like me to type!

She finishes:

"When think over this point very carefully I reached the conclusion that a straight nose-bone, ending in a nice broad generous nostril with the lip curving away very slightly into the line of the under-jaw, was typical, with the depth from the stop to the under-jaw being VERY SLIGHTLY deeper than the depth from the nose-bone at the nostril to the tip of the lip."

The yellow Lab in this picture was made a Show Champion around 1980.



This Lab was made a Show Champion in 2016.




About 36 years separates these two dogs, very similar heads, very representative of the breed.

[barry581]

This link is for CH FABRACKEN COMEDY STAR, a very nice head study of one of the top winning British Labs of all time, who was also regularly worked in the field.

CH.Fabracken Comedy Star

[soberbyker]

I tried reading some of the descriptors of the types of lab, very confusing. I don't plan on showing Zeke so this is more of a I'm curious question, what type does Zeke fit?