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  1. #1
    Senior Dog voodoo's Avatar
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    tricky question-breeders

    Can/should a reputable breeder guarantee a genetic disorder free puppy?

    As many know on this board I am a first time pet owner and that I didnt do my research when buying Chili(internet bought). But since becoming a daddy to chili, I have done alot of research and read alot of forums. Most of forum postings are bad/need help scenarios but I noticed that labs have so many things wrong with them and most get blamed on genetics. Chili's ED was determined to be genetic. So why are there so many genetic problems with labs? And to counter that, where are the breeders that guarantee no genetic problems? or is this just wishful thinking? I dont know the answers, thus asking the question.

    second thought: I respect dog breeders. one aspect that makes me wonder tho is that they are always referred to as bettering the breed for the benefit of making a better pup for themselves...so this idea leads me to believe they will try anything to get the "best" pup they can and if they have bad results...they just sell the pups and try again.
    Last edited by voodoo; 06-10-2014 at 05:17 PM. Reason: second thought
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  2. #2
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    Labradors are a very popular breed. With popularity comes mass production. Mass production brings on issues. There are breeders out there that pride themselves with lines that are without genetic problems. Some don't. Those who don't, strive for that "perfect" pup without any thought in it. Instant gratification. And will sell pups to others without thought at all as they are so focused on getting a perfect pup right away. Unfortunately these pups find their way into other breeding programs and if you don't do your research, you might find one of those "instant gratification perfect pups" in your line and it will wreak havoc. Also don't forget those designer labs that are out there too. Dogs that might have not been fit to be crossed into the Lab to make a designer dog, and then issues happen there. Not all pups from these designing breeding look like a designer, actually look like a Lab. Which find there way into a breeder's line.

    Seen this in Rabbits. To find a breeder, you have to find out how they look at their line, how they look at breeding. Do they look at their line as a pet line, or a show line. If it's a show line, how long have they been showing? And how "into showing" are they? And for how long.

    Breeder is just important as the line she/he has.

    KAZ

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  4. #3
    Senior Dog Tanya's Avatar
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    pretty much any breed has it's health issues. why? breeding for extremes, bad breeding, willy nilly breeding, not doing your research breeding.

    Should a breeder guarantee a puppy free of any genetic issues? they can't. because evens with all the best odds and cleanest lines, nature happens. if a breeder made such a guarantee I would probably run away from them. all they can do is their due diligence in testing and in picking a mate. beyond that - it's all nature.

    Most reputable breeder breeds in hopes of keeping one of the pups (for themselves, co-owner, maybe the stud owner). But they are not looking for the same thing as most of us puppy buyers. ALL those pups are healthy and good pups. They just may not have the best conformation. And while conformation does impact health (meaning, lack of conformation can mean the dog is not "built" right and could be prone to health issues) the puppies in a well breed litter from a good breeder shouldN't be so all over the map that they are suddenly "lemons". The breeder may also be looking for a specific temperament, which is not to say the other pups are "bad temperament" just that they may want a pup with more zing (or less zing depending).

    You can't see the "non keepers" as damaged goods.

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  6. #4
    Senior Dog smartrock's Avatar
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    I'm not sure that a breeder can absolutely guarantee no genetic problems, other than to offer to replace a pup that has a proven disorder if one shows up. I read a lot about elbow dysplasia also, and read that even when both parents have normal elbows and their parents and their parents, up to 12% of the offspring may show up with ED. Why does that happen? I don't really know, maybe there are some other things that "trigger" a disorder to manifest in some but not in others.

    I'm sure both my parents (not that I think of them as "breeding stock"), would have claimed that they had no severe genetic disorders of which anyone was aware back several generations on either side. So what happened? Two of my siblings began losing their sight in their 20s and are now severely vision impaired. My other sibling and I are not. How could this not be genetic? What genetic turn of events turned on this disorder? I would imagine that many genetic disorders are not just one gene, but many, and sometimes a certain combination of genetics and maybe environmental issues clicks the "on" button.

    I agree it seems like labs have an array of possibly genetic disorders, but I've had boxers and bullmastiffs prior to labs and those breeds are prone to a number of disorders that may have a genetic basis, since they're so common, and which can be very severe also. All 5 of those dogs died at age 8 or younger, which I think is too darn young.

    I think if you want to do your best to avoid genetic disorders, you try to find breeders who breed very carefully and test for disorders, recognizing that even when you try your very best, sometimes life happens.
    Sue

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  8. #5
    Senior Dog voodoo's Avatar
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    I once thought about this while watching american ninja warrior. its like a cross-fit athletic competition. every contestant that does well seems to be under 6 foot in height and under 180 pounds and extremely athletic. I could not imagine any bodybuilder doing this. So its like the difference in field/bench. But thats not really my meat-potatoes point. I read one study where over 30% of all labs have genetic problems. If that stat is accurate, is the main reason due to breeding? many say so, but I have no idea. one friend says all purebred dogs have genetic probs due to many generations of breeding. 20-30 years ago when I was a kid, I just dont remember so many issues in dogs, maybe they were all mutts back then...I dont know.
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  9. #6
    Senior Dog dxboon's Avatar
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    Just like there are good dog owners, bad dog owners, and everything in between; there are breeders, even amongst those that tick all the boxes as reputable, that fall all long the spectrum within the bucket labeled "reputable."

    All breeds have predispositions toward certain genetic traits; bad and good. Labs may be perceived as having "so many genetic problems" because 1) there are simply so many Labs; and 2) most Labs being bred are not well-bred. Even with a sire and dam who have all their elbow/hip testing done and cleared, there is always the possibility of a fluke of nature resulting in an elbow or hip issue with the offspring. However, the way dogs are reared, once they leave a breeder's home also can result in elbow/hip damage. Lots of pet owners fail to take this into consideration once fingers start getting pointed when issues arise. Many other common issues that afflict Labs can be weeded out for certain, if the parents are cleared, or if carriers, they are only bred to non-carriers.

    I don't think any breeder, good, bad, or indifferent, can 100% guarantee that nothing will ever arise with a puppy they bred. Dogs are not created in a manufacturing plant by robots with .000001% margin of error. Mother Nature always has her say. I don't put a lot of stock in written guarantees when it comes to dogs. A lot of puppy millers, and backyard breeders, are the ones who most often have these long-winded guarantees (which often involve things like giving your dog back to them prior to reimbursement/replacement).

    The best reputable hobby breeders do not have "bad results" that they pawn off on pet people -- this would just come back and be a huge pain in the butt for them, because a truly reputable breeder will take back any dog they produce under any circumstances, period. Why provide a "bad" puppy to someone if you are just going to get it back? They also don't "try anything" to get some kind of amazing puppy that they've Frankensteined together.

    My honest suggestion to people is to invest a lot of time into the dog buying process before you ever bring a dog into your house. At bare minimum you obviously want all the clearances, and then I also think it's important for a variety of reasons to go with someone who actually does some activity with their dogs that allows them to receive some form of independent/outside review of their breeding stock, but beyond that there is a lot more you can do to ensure you are getting a pup from someone who is really worth supporting. If you go to shows (or field trials, or obedience, etc.) and meet breeders, talk to them, see their dogs in action, get references from other purchasers of their dogs, you can get a much better sense of the person you are dealing with and the type of dog they produce.

    Personally, there is a certain intangible quality that I am hunting for as well, when looking for breeders. It's not just the clearances, or how their dogs look, how many titles they have, the type of socialization they do, but it's that connection on a personal level that I am also looking for. I want all the above PLUS I want to know that I can have an honest relationship and dialogue with my breeder about the health and welfare of my dog throughout its life. I think everyone should be looking for the complete package when they decide to purchase a purebred dog from someone.

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  11. #7
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    Nature happens and sometimes people happen. With a reputable breeder, there will be guidelines that should be followed with their lines. Don't follow them, well think you would loose that warranty. Some people might think this is too restrictive, but I see it as a plus. Again, not just buying a pup, but also have generations behind it, along with a breeder who really is trying to breed a healthy pup to the SOP (standard of perfection). So all pups, thought not show bound, will be healthy and sound. Like rabbits, not all make the show, but if you have a good line, will be as close as you can get to that healthy, show rabbit. To go on as pets, or even foundation breeders themselves.

    KAZ

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  13. #8
    Senior Dog dxboon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
    one friend says all purebred dogs have genetic probs due to many generations of breeding. 20-30 years ago when I was a kid, I just dont remember so many issues in dogs, maybe they were all mutts back then...I dont know.
    I'm sure your friend is a proponent of the hybrid vigor theory -- that mixed breeds are healthier than purebreds. There is no conclusive evidence of this. There are many studies on purebreds and various illnesses. It is harder to do a controlled study on mixed breeds. Mixed breeds are often afflicted with disorders prevalent in the multiple breeds that make up their genetic melting pot, so are prone to even more issues. They are also likely the product of dogs that were never genetically screened and never bred to consider health or temperament. When I was a child, I also don't remember all these genetic issues affecting dogs, but as a kid, these were not big concerns for me.

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  15. #9
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    guarantee?

    i doubt that exists. they can do testing for everything that should be tested for, and then, if it doesn't work out , offer you another pup but i doubt there are guarantees . with anything in life.

    pick a good, reputable breeder and you have a shot at getting a healthy dog.
    go to a pet store, or byb or not a great breeder and……

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  17. #10
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    Some genetic diseases, such as EIC and CNM for examples, have DNA testing. If both parents are tested and don't carry those genes, then the pups will be clear as well. Other genetic issues aren't so clear, such hips, elbows, skin issues, epilepsy, heart problems, etc. Even generations of good hips and elbows and hearts doesn't guarantee all pups will be okay, but it does decrease the probability of severe issues. Most reputable will offer a 'guarantee' on those for 24 - 30 months for severe cases. However, that doesn't *guarantee* perfection, since environmental factors also play a role. I think of it more as a 'warranty'.

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