It sounds so easy....Breeding - Labrador Retriever Dogs Chat Forum Board - Dogs, Puppies, Photos, Training, Pictures, Rescue Forums

uplander · 11-20-2009, 11:02 AM

Some people make it sound so very easy to breed the perfect Labrador....

When you give it some thought....especially thinking in terms of evolution and the laws of natural selection....it is amazing that Breeding for specifics in a pure bred dog has continued for as long as it has....

As a lay person, Labrador owner only , the hardest part must be the size requirements needed to keep generations from growing.....out of standard

If in every litter you take your best pup over time , just like in man, the species gets bigger and stronger....so at some point you must have to breed to the weaker smaller girls to get the size back down....

For the health of pure bred dogs...does that make a lot of sense...? shouldn't the standards grow, so that only the best dogs breed...?

Example...in my dogs pedigree is a girl called Wolvercote Gaity Girl...
http://www.dickendall.com/gayle.html

A very small looking Labrador....but breed to Dickendall Arnold she produces Clark...a dog described as even being bigger than Arnold....my Satch is a Clark son...and I bet bigger than Clark....

so how hard is it to get a keeper, show quality, that still falls within standard ?

WigWag · 11-20-2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

If in every litter you take your best pup over time , just like in man, the species gets bigger and stronger....so at some point you must have to breed to the weaker smaller girls to get the size back down....

For the health of pure bred dogs...does that make a lot of sense...? shouldn't the standards grow, so that only the best dogs breed...?

Whoa whoa whoa who ever said smaller is weaker and larger is stronger? Tell that to a Beagle breeder - they don't want huge and tall Beagles!!!!

A dog that is out of standard can either be too large or too small. When selectively breeding a particular breed of any animal it's not all that usual to get ones that are too big or too small - most fall within the middle range (some upper middle and some lower middle).

Another dog with Satch's same height/weight could still win in the show ring if other qualities were present and different. Satch and his brothers are not "too big" meaning their height/weight falls out of standard for the show ring - their proportions are just off - does that make sense? We want everything on a dog to look like a Labrador - not any other breed - that makes a Labrador a Labrador. A really really big head is not Labradorlike.

Oh and Clark's mother is shorter on leg (she's also very overweight in that photo). Clark is a good sized dog but he's certainly not HUGE and out of standard. When I first saw him at 15 months he was very average sized - as he matured he took on a lot of substance but he's not really tall or out of proportion.

Squeaksmom · 11-20-2009, 11:15 AM

That only works if best=largest and small=weak and inferior. I've never seen that to be true in dogs, horses or humans so your argument falls apart somewhat.

uplander · 11-20-2009, 11:40 AM

So breeding is difficult ..That was my only point....picking which two so that they come out perfect....

Satch's mom is very beautiful....Clark is very handsome....but it doesn't mean you get the next " Arnold" ...That it is trial and error...How does anyone know what a litter will become unless a breeding takes place....

You might get a " Boy" who actually makes small Labs....or a small girl who makes giants...

I am just trying to understand breeding....I've seen television shows on how dogs can be changed fast by breeding for certain characteristics....

Sharon ...I didn't mean to denigrate Beagles...or Terriers ..not my intent....

Great tough dogs....

was trying to relate it to Basketball...Bob Cousy was a great point guard...in his time...but the game evolves and "Magic Johnson" is 6 ft 8" tall to Cousy's 6 ft frame... If Cousy has that frame he would have even been better...

or the size of LeBron James to Michael Jordan..seems like each generation justs gets bigger and stronger...

Not true for dogs ?

WigWag · 11-20-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

was trying to relate it to Basketball...Bob Cousy was a great point guard...in his time...but the game evolves and "Magic Johnson" is 6 ft 8" tall to Cousy's 6 ft frame... If Cousy has that frame he would have even been better...

or the size of LeBron James to Michael Jordan..seems like each generation justs gets bigger and stronger...

Not true for dogs ?

Those are games in which a larger/tall individual would excel over a shorter/smaller person. You have to take into consideration what a particular breed of dog or any other animal you are breeding was designed to do and still does on many occasions. You don't want a terrier to be too big - they won't fit down a rabbit hole. You don't want a 140 lbs Labrador - he wouldn't fit in a boat or a blind or be equipped to swim a long distance.

Breeding is an art form (not coincidentally many successful breeders are also artists) - you dream up the most perfect specimen in your mind and try to create that in flesh and blood. You need to be an individual who loves to pour over pedigrees and has a natural "eye" that is born not made. You need to be passionate and thick skinned and above all else always remember that breeding is a crap shoot and there are no perfect specimens!

windycanyon · 11-20-2009, 07:40 PM

Yes, it's so easy.

Sometimes, you will find the smallest pup of the litter really ends up being the pick and/or one of the biggest! And sometimes you do a breeding and everything seems great, but it's a disaster due to something hidden, like the person posting earlier today about her litter of 15 dying off (probably due to herpes-- either an exposure to an affected dog or possibly due to whelping conditions/temperatures not being appropriate).

I hope anyone reading this post about how "easy" breeding is will take the time to read further. This is all we need right now!

Can I also say it royally irks me to be responding to rescue emails of folks losing their homes or in other distress, who are without a breeder who will step up to the plate to take back the pup they produced? Another case of taking the $$ and running.

Anyone who breeds, really should be involved in rescue, and I bet more folks would keep their noses clean. Anne

Annette47 · 11-20-2009, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windycanyon

Can I also say it royally irks me to be responding to rescue emails of folks losing their homes or in other distress, who are without a breeder who will step up to the plate to take back the pup they produced? Another case of taking the $$ and running.

I so agree with you on this one. As a matter of fact, if for some reason the breeders who own Mulder's baby mamas were unable to take back a pup from those litters I would do it in a heartbeat. I can't imagine being instrumetal in some way towards producing a life and not be willing to take responsibility for it.

windycanyon · 11-20-2009, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Annette47

I so agree with you on this one. As a matter of fact, if for some reason the breeders who own Mulder's baby mamas were unable to take back a pup from those litters I would do it in a heartbeat. I can't imagine being instrumetal in some way towards producing a life and not be willing to take responsibility for it.

Not so far fetched actually either. Several years ago, a reputable breeder here in the NW was contacted via an email chat group regarding a dog that had been used at stud at a puppy mill in the midwest (this before Limited Registration was available)-- he was up on the auction blocks. Mind you, this breeder the closest recognizable kennel name on the dog's pedigree, being the owner of the Great Grandfather or something like that! She arranged for someone to "buy" him at the auction, and flew him out so she could rehome him. Now that is a classy breeder! The dogs from the breeders I'm dealing w/ are far from that, I'm sure.

I am glad to be coming off my 10 day (for the month) rescue shift in a matter of a couple hours because it's just too depressing to see the number of dogs getting dumped right now.

Anne

uplander · 11-20-2009, 10:17 PM

Rarely does tone come over the Internet keyboard.... my intent was to imply that breeding is just what you experts said....very difficult....

I was thinking out loud...please except my apologies...

WigWag · 11-21-2009, 05:32 AM

Anne I agree with you 100% It's the least we can do for this wonderful breed is to become involved in rescue.

A few years back a woman involved in rescue called me with a 2 year old chocolate male sired by my Clint that was now in need of a new home. The breeder of this dog had talked a big talk on several forums about what was right and wrong in breeding and was seemingly a good breeder who had bred champions and had been doing this for 25 years. She refused to take the dog back! I offered to take him however he found a home the next day through the rescue. I was shocked. I would always find a way to take in a dog I produced.

HeatherGlenES · 11-21-2009, 11:37 AM

I have to say that in the last litter of English Setters I raised the show picks were not the biggest or the smallest. They were the most correct to the breed standard and/or the moderate puppies in the litter who had great heads, good bites, proper structure, etc. and even then as they grew some of those "show picks" have not turned out to be show quality after all. Bigger is NOT always better and never will be when you are trying to breed to a particular standard.

11-20-2009, 11:02 AM	#1
uplander Senior Dog Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: North East USA Posts: 5,051 My Mood:	It sounds so easy....Breeding Some people make it sound so very easy to breed the perfect Labrador.... When you give it some thought....especially thinking in terms of evolution and the laws of natural selection....it is amazing that Breeding for specifics in a pure bred dog has continued for as long as it has.... As a lay person, Labrador owner only , the hardest part must be the size requirements needed to keep generations from growing.....out of standard If in every litter you take your best pup over time , just like in man, the species gets bigger and stronger....so at some point you must have to breed to the weaker smaller girls to get the size back down.... For the health of pure bred dogs...does that make a lot of sense...? shouldn't the standards grow, so that only the best dogs breed...? Example...in my dogs pedigree is a girl called Wolvercote Gaity Girl... http://www.dickendall.com/gayle.html A very small looking Labrador....but breed to Dickendall Arnold she produces Clark...a dog described as even being bigger than Arnold....my Satch is a Clark son...and I bet bigger than Clark.... so how hard is it to get a keeper, show quality, that still falls within standard ?

11-20-2009, 11:40 AM	#4
uplander Senior Dog Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: North East USA Posts: 5,051 My Mood:	So breeding is difficult ..That was my only point....picking which two so that they come out perfect.... Satch's mom is very beautiful....Clark is very handsome....but it doesn't mean you get the next " Arnold" ...That it is trial and error...How does anyone know what a litter will become unless a breeding takes place.... You might get a " Boy" who actually makes small Labs....or a small girl who makes giants... I am just trying to understand breeding....I've seen television shows on how dogs can be changed fast by breeding for certain characteristics.... Sharon ...I didn't mean to denigrate Beagles...or Terriers ..not my intent.... Great tough dogs.... was trying to relate it to Basketball...Bob Cousy was a great point guard...in his time...but the game evolves and "Magic Johnson" is 6 ft 8" tall to Cousy's 6 ft frame... If Cousy has that frame he would have even been better... or the size of LeBron James to Michael Jordan..seems like each generation justs gets bigger and stronger... Not true for dogs ? Last edited by uplander; 11-20-2009 at 09:45 PM.

11-20-2009, 10:17 PM	#9
uplander Senior Dog Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: North East USA Posts: 5,051 My Mood:	Rarely does tone come over the Internet keyboard.... my intent was to imply that breeding is just what you experts said....very difficult.... I was thinking out loud...please except my apologies... Last edited by uplander; 11-20-2009 at 10:45 PM.

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11-20-2009, 11:15 AM	#3
Squeaksmom Retriever Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edmonton Posts: 395 My Mood:	That only works if best=largest and small=weak and inferior. I've never seen that to be true in dogs, horses or humans so your argument falls apart somewhat.

11-20-2009, 07:40 PM	#6
windycanyon Senior Dog Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: C. WA Posts: 1,599	Yes, it's so easy. Sometimes, you will find the smallest pup of the litter really ends up being the pick and/or one of the biggest! And sometimes you do a breeding and everything seems great, but it's a disaster due to something hidden, like the person posting earlier today about her litter of 15 dying off (probably due to herpes-- either an exposure to an affected dog or possibly due to whelping conditions/temperatures not being appropriate). I hope anyone reading this post about how "easy" breeding is will take the time to read further. This is all we need right now! Can I also say it royally irks me to be responding to rescue emails of folks losing their homes or in other distress, who are without a breeder who will step up to the plate to take back the pup they produced? Another case of taking the $$ and running. Anyone who breeds, really should be involved in rescue, and I bet more folks would keep their noses clean. Anne

11-21-2009, 05:32 AM	#10
WigWag Senior Dog Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: NH Posts: 676 My Mood:	Anne I agree with you 100% It's the least we can do for this wonderful breed is to become involved in rescue. A few years back a woman involved in rescue called me with a 2 year old chocolate male sired by my Clint that was now in need of a new home. The breeder of this dog had talked a big talk on several forums about what was right and wrong in breeding and was seemingly a good breeder who had bred champions and had been doing this for 25 years. She refused to take the dog back! I offered to take him however he found a home the next day through the rescue. I was shocked. I would always find a way to take in a dog I produced.

11-21-2009, 11:37 AM	#11
HeatherGlenES Tiocfaidh ár lá Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Just west of nowhere Posts: 2,216	I have to say that in the last litter of English Setters I raised the show picks were not the biggest or the smallest. They were the most correct to the breed standard and/or the moderate puppies in the litter who had great heads, good bites, proper structure, etc. and even then as they grew some of those "show picks" have not turned out to be show quality after all. Bigger is NOT always better and never will be when you are trying to breed to a particular standard.