Taste of the Wild... Lab Puppies

[uplander]

It was stated in another thread that TOTW is not good for Lg. breed puppies..

but if you go to their web site it states it is fine...for Lg Breed pups

http://www.tasteofthewildpetfood.com/faq/

Can I feed this food to my large breed puppy?

Yes. All of the Taste of the Wild formulas meet the nutritional needs for growing puppies. Large breed puppies should be fed a little differently than small or medium breed puppies in order to control their growth rate. Overfeeding calories can lead to rapid growth, which puts stress on the developing bones and joints. It is important to keep your large breed puppy in lean body condition - ask your vet how to determine whether your puppy is lean or too heavy. You may have to adjust the feeding amount up or down from what is indicated on the package, the package just provides an estimate of the amount to feed and every puppy is a bit different.

I for one feel it is OK ... and believe the company...

Why.. ? because the answer they give is so much common sense...

Think of a puppy wild dog.. a wolf or coyote .. They eat and chew bones from kills ..They don't get out a measuring cup ... but they don't get a lot to eat.. they are not fat...

Satch ate Cal Nat Lamb (2.1 Calcium) from weaning til now (14 months) per breeders instruction and the Natura Co assuring me it would be OK... and he turned out fine.. And is as strong as a horse...(even some EVO Rf mixed in at 20 %..at 12 months old)

So am I wrong to feel that the Magic 1.5 Cal in Puppy foods is a "Marketing Tool" to sell Lg. Breed Puppy food which they charge more for ?

[missretta]

The AAFCO standards list calcium maximum at 2.5%.

What should be taken into consideration (for safety sake) is does your dog have several generations of certified hips.

[LuckyLuna]

I'm not sure "the magic 1.5" is entirely a marketing tool, but it's probably a factor. I think the percentage number came from an old study done on one very large breed. Amounts being fed, digestibility of ingredients, etc. surely all come into play. Guess it's my round-about way of saying that I agree with your observations to some extent; and don't think the 1.5% calcium level is as clear cut of an issue as it's often presented.

[uplander]

Originally Posted by missretta

The AAFCO standards list calcium maximum at 2.5%.

What should be taken into consideration (for safety sake) is does your dog have several generations of certified hips.

So.. if a dogs parents have hips cleared by Experts who read the x-rays the off-spring should have good hips... It is not the Calcium in foods.. It is the genetic profile that determines Hip dysplaysia and OCD or injury... Makes sense.. that the food is only a fuel... and that too many calories fed has a bigger impact..

And following that same thought.. a dog who's parents are not cleared (Hips) can eat the best Lg. breed food (low Calcium ..under 1.5) and still get Hip Dysplayia because the Genetic blueprint ultimately determines the outcome .

[Nelson & Pearl]

Uplander, no input on the food. Just wanted to say that Satch is the cutest big guy I've ever seen(besides Nelson of course). Just curious how much he weighs. Nelson is at 105.

Thanks, Tara.

[Labman]

Hip problems is a very complex matter. Genetics are definitely a big factor. Fast growth from overfeeding and an overly rich diet can lead to more problems than better controlled growth. I can hardly imagine any company admitting their fast growth producing puppy chow can lead to hip problems. I think all the companies recommend feeding puppy chow to a year or even 2.

Everybody has access to any studies in the literature. I have to admit I don't go off to a library with the JAVMA and regularly read it. I am sure none of the academic studies specifically used TOTW. Since each chow is different, results from one, may or may not equal the results from a different brand. I find myself wondering how much resources TOTW has to put into testing their food. Do they go beyond the limited AAFCO tests? Do they have the thousands of X-rays of dogs with known genetic profiles and known body condition maintained as a puppy the service dog schools have? I don't even know that the larger companies have that sort of data.

If you want to risk feeding puppy chow past 4 months, it is your dog you are risking. I will stick to the highly successful regimen of keeping the puppy lean and switching to adult chow at 4 months.

[missretta]

*Due to copyright notice I had to copy the entire article. Sorry this is so long but it's an easy to read article. Red highlighting is mine.

HIP DYSPLASIA IN GROWING DOGS:

RECOMMENDATIONS FOR BREEDING AND NUTRITION

by Dr. Cindy L. Shmon, Diplomate ACVS

Department of Veterinary Anesthesiology, Radiology & Surgery

'This article is reprinted from VET TOPICS, the newsletter of the Companion Animal Health Fund of the WesternCollege of Veterinary Medicine. Information about the Fund may be obtained by writing to - CAHF, Off ice of the Dean, WCVM; University of Saskatchewan, 52 Campus Drive; Saskatoon, SK S7N 5B4. Tax-deductible donations to the Fund may be sent to the same address.'
The hip joint is a ball and socket joint; the ball is the top or head of the femur (thigh bone) and the socket or acetabulum is a bony cup on the side of the pelvis. This highly mobile joint is stabilized by a ligament, its joint capsule and the surrounding thigh muscles. Hip dysplasia refers to a skeletal disease where the hip develops abnormally and arthritis results.
Development of hip dysplasia
At birth the skeleton is composed mainly of cartilage, which is slowly converted to bone as the puppy grows. During growth, bones are constantly reshaped until the final adult shape is reached. In order for the hip joint to develop normally, the ball (femoral head) must be maintained in the socket (acetabulum) during the critical period of growth. This is the First 6-8 months in most breeds.
Puppies with hip dysplasia have a normal hip joint at birth. As they grow, the bones tend to grow faster than the supporting muscles; and soft tissues. The ball begins to slip out of the socket. This is called joint laxity and is the first sign of hip dysplasia. Then, a number of things happen: As the ball slips out of the socket, it hits the edge of the socket causing microscopic fractures and scraping the surface cartilage off the bone. Then the ligament and joint capsule stretch. As the ball is not sitting tightly in the socket, there is no stimulus for a deep socket to develop so it becomes progressively more shallow. The end result is an unstable hip and arthritis.
What causes hip dysplasia?
Hip dysplasia is a genetic disease. Unfortunately, it is more complicated than traits like coat color where a dominant gene will show up In all offspring carrying the gene and elimination of a problem is as simple as not breeding affected animals. We do not know the exact genetics of hip dysplasia, but we know that transmission involves multiple genes and that dysplastic hips arc recessive to normal hips. This means dogs with x-ray evidence of hip dysplasia, regardless of severity, carry the genes for hip dysplasia and should not be used for breeding. It also means dogs with normal hips on a x-ray may carry the genes for the disease and you may have several generations of normal dogs before the problem .. suddenly" appears in your line. While it is difficult to eliminate, we can decrease the Incidence of hip dysplasia by only breeding dogs with normal hips. Breeding studies have shown breeding 2 dysplastic dogs results in 85-95% dysplastic) puppies, breeding a normal dog to a dysplastic dog results in approximately half of the puppies affected and breeding two normal dogs will result in about one third of the puppies having hip dysplasia. The percentage of normal pups improves with each generation the disease is absent.
Influence of hip dysplasia through nutrition
Breeding to remove hip dysplasia from your line is also complicated by the role environment plays In the expression of the disease. Most of the research performed in this area has examined modifying the disease through nutrition. There is strong evidence that-nutritional modifications can delay the onset or lessen the severity of hip dysplasia, and even prevent dogs with a strong genetic potential for hip dysplasia from developing the disease.
a. Nutritional Deficiencies
Nutritional deficiencies arc rare in today's world of commercial diets. Most problems we see arc in dogs fed homemade diets. While some breeders may have the knowledge, time and dedication to consistently prepare a balanced diet for their dogs, there art few pet owners able to duplicate such "custom" diets consistently. Substitution or omission of a single ingredient can cause severe bone diseases despite the best intentions. Pet food companies spend millions of dollars researching their diets, and it is my opinion that the average owner is best to defer to their expertise.
There have been a lot of "old wives tales" about deficiencies of different nutrients causing hip dysplasia or supplementation preventing the disease. The most popular idea is that Vitamin C can prevent development of the disease. This theory was proposed because Vitamin C is used to make collagen, one of the major tissues of cartilage, bone and tissues supporting the joint. Even though dogs, unlike people, make their own Vitamin C, it was suggested that a deficiency of Vitamin C caused the joint laxity seen early in hip dysplasia. The study which showed some benefit from Vitamin C supplementation was not done scientifically, and its results cannot be repeated. Perhaps the reasons Vitamin C supplementation has become popular is that "it can't hurt' and It is quite inexpensive. Unfortunately, research has shown that Vitamin C adversely affects a dog's calcium balance, so it may actually increase the risk of some bone diseases, including hip dysplasia.
b. Nutritional Excesses:
Over the years, we have selected our dogs to be bigger, and as a result we have increased the average size of many large breeds. Not only have we bred for bigger dogs, but we have fed them so they get big as fast as possible.
Calcium Supplementation: "Big, strong bones need lots of calcium, you want to grow big and strong, don't you?". This is the argument many parents give children for drinking milk and taking vitamins. Unfortunately, we have carried this to extremes in our dogs. It is true that calcium is necessary for normal bone growth, but this is one case where more is definitely not better! Puppies have no safety mechanisms to protect them from absorbing too much calcium. Too much calcium actually slows bone development by slowing the conversion of cartilage to bone - the bones may get bigger faster, but they do not gain equivalent strength. It is well proven that dogs on commercial diets do not need calcium supplementation, no matter what their size or breed. In fact, the incidence of all bone diseases, including hip dysplasia, increases dramatically when large or giant breeds are given any form of calcium supplementation.
Over nutrition:
Dogs eat to meet their energy requirements and commercial diets are balanced so that feeding them according to your dog's energy needs will ensure it gets the minimum amounts of all nutrients. However, diets these days are very tasty and most dogs will overeat. As well, people tend to overfeed their pets because they want them big and consider it a sign of good health. This has increased the occurrence of a number of bone diseases including hip dysplasia. Current evidence suggests that overfeeding increases the amount of calcium the dogs receive and adds extra weight which must be supported by the puppy's soft bones. Everyone has seen those "cute little roly-poly" pups, but what is seldom noticed is that these pups are usually less active and more clumsy than their leaner litter mates. The puppy that grows slower will be more active, in better condition and still end up as big - he just takes longer to get there.
We can reduce the frequency and the severity of hip dysplasia and other bone diseases seen in growing large breed dogs by slowing their growth rate for the first six months of their life. We are not talking about starving them or playing around with the amount of nutrients and minerals they receive, but just feeding them strictly what they need. We should feed a high-quality diet, as some less expensive diets use bone meal as a meat source and this may increase the amount of calcium in the diet. Amounts recommended on dog food bags are sometimes excessive. Pups should not be given continuous access to food (free choice) as they will overeat. Formulas are available to calculate the amount of energy a pup should receive, and from these one can determine the exact amount of a specific diet to feed. The problem is that there is a large variation between breeds and individuals depending on their temperament and activity level. It is also necessary to make weekly recalculations when the pup is growing rapidly. These factors make formulas awkward and impractical for most owners.
In general, it is much easier to feed the puppy so it remains lean. This means the ribs and bones along the back should be easy to feel, but not quite visible. There should be a prominent waist (region just in front of the back legs). For some breeds and individuals, the puppy can be fed what it will eat in 10 - 15 minutes and monitored to ensure its body condition remains lean. For very tasty diets or dogs with big appetites or a competitive nature, this can result in overfeeding and overweight puppies. In these cases, one can start with the amount recommended on the bag and adjust according to the pup's body condition. If the pup seems a little thin, up the food a bit. If they are a little chubby, cut it back a bit. If an owner is in doubt whether their pup is gaining weight, they should cut the food back a bit.
In conclusion, a couple of points should be stressed:


We cannot cause hip dysplasia by what we feed UNLESS the dog carries the genes for hip dysplasia. Keeping puppies lean as they are growing will NOT eliminate hip dysplasia in every dog, but MAY make it less severe or, in some cases, prevent it from showing up in some individual dogs. These dogs still carry the gene for hip dysplasia and can pass them on to their offspring. The only way to eliminate the disease is through careful screening of breeding stock and meticulous monitoring of multiple generations.
Copyright © 2003. Dr. Cindy L. Shmon. All rights reserved


This was written in 2003 before AAFCO standards were changed and talks about supplementing with calcium, it would be interesting to hear the authors opinion of our new foods with higher percents of calcium. I know how my vet feels about calcium levels and perhaps asking your vet or breeder about calcium levels is your best bet.

"I for one feel it is OK ... and believe the company..."

Perhaps this is just marketing hype, they are in the business of selling dog food afterall and with the change in AAFCO standards they're covered. I received a different answer when I spoke to them directly.

I don't feel comfortable making a statement on a public forum that these high calcium levels are ok for puppies. I would feel terrible if someone had serious orthopedic problems because they fed these foods based on my opinion. If a new puppy owner overfeeds these foods there is a further increase in risk because too much calcium is being taken in along with the calories. Ask a good breeder what they think about feeding their puppies a diet that is over 2% in calcium, you may be violating their contract and void any warranties by doing this. Honestly Uplander, I think your breeder was going by calcium levels that were on the old CN bags when you were told what to feed your puppy. She may still feel these higher levels are ok but she will be in the minority. It's always safer to err on the side of caution.

[uplander]

Thank you for posting.. nice article..

I do feel confident that TOTW posted it is acceptable to feed to Lg. Breed Puppies... it is no different than Eagle Pack Lg/giant HS Puppy food having over 2.0 Calcium.. and the Great Danes have no issues.. ask the Great Dane Lady.. she pushes that food..

Bottom line.. from reading that article.. Hip issues are genetic in nature.. Only those people who don't know their pups back ground need to worry about too much Calcium.. But all pups can grow more slow and steady by not overfeeding.


But even dogs fed low calcium diets if they carry the bad gene are very likely to get HD. But sometimes it may help..

In my opinion.. Make sure your pup has parents cleared before purchasing the pup.. If you didn't.. Don't blame the food.

I have not weighed Satch in a few months.. But I am sure he is 100 lbs or more.. He is very thick bodied and well muscled. Fat ? Some might say that.. .. I just think it helps him float..

[missretta]

Originally Posted by Labman

I find myself wondering how much resources TOTW has to put into testing their food. Do they go beyond the limited AAFCO tests?

I missed seeing your post.

AAFCO Statement from TOTW website:

Taste of the Wild High Prairie Canine Formula is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) Dog Food Nutrient Profiles for all life stages.

The same statement is made for Pacific Stream Canine formula and Wetlands Canine formula.

Here's what this means, taken from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration:

Manufacturers can show their food meets AAFCO's standards for nutritional adequacy by calculations or by feeding trials. Calculations estimate the amount of nutrients in a pet food either on the basis of average nutrient content of its ingredients, or on results of laboratory tests--but not animal feed tests. If the calculations show that the food provides sufficient nutrients to meet the specific AAFCO nutritional profile referenced, the pet food label will carry a statement like: "(Name of product) is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO (Dog or Cat) Food Nutrient Profiles for (specific life stage)."

Feeding trials signify that the manufacturer has tested the product (or a similar product made by the same manufacturer) in dogs or cats under strict guidelines. Products found to provide proper nutrition based on feeding trials will carry a statement such as: "Animal feeding tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate that (name of product) provides complete and balanced nutrition for (specific life stage)."

[DarwinsMom]

With all due respect, unless you've had your boy's hips/elbows xrayed and read by a radiologist, you don't KNOW he's ok

Is 1.5% a marketing gimmick for LB puppy foods? Not sure, I don't feed an LB puppy food but I sure do stay as low on the calcium as I can until the pup is older. Many, many dogs have grown up ok on higher calcium foods (I know someone who fed EVO from day one!), but why take the chance when there are plenty of good foods where you don't have to? OFA cleared parents, not overdoing forced exercise, feeding appropriately, keeping at a healthy weight, etc all stack the deck in your favor.

[missretta]

Originally Posted by uplander

Hip issues are genetic in nature.. Only those people who don't know their pups back ground need to worry about too much Calcium..

I wouldn't say that either. Hips are really a crapshoot. You can stack the odds in your favor but having pups whose parents have passed clearances doesn't mean you won't end up with a dog that gets HD. A grade of "Fair" is passing.

[windycanyon]

I played around with feeding a higher (1.2%Ca/ 1.0%P food 5 yrs ago and hated the results I was seeing as early as 5.5 wks. I saw long bone growth exceeding tendon response. I had a weakened structure evidenced by weaker pasterns, knuckling over, etc. I mixed in some lower Ca/P food, and it improved somewhat, and not until I went back to my tried and true (Eukanuba LBP at 0.8% Ca 0.6% or so P) did my uniform growth return. Another friend w/ field lines had always fed ProPlan adult (~1.2% Ca, 1.0% P) and tried the Euk lbp, and loved her results too.

I won't bother trying anything else as I know my lines just do better on the scaled back food. I also use digestive enzymes to maximize use. I only hope that folks are listening to their breeders instead of asking their buddies who likely know nothing about the lines. Anne

[Labman]

I want to thank missretta for finding and posting that article. Hum! It is about 6 years old. Of course Kealy, et al. "Effects of limited food consumption on the incidence of hip dysplasia in growing dogs." JAVMA, v201, n6 Sept 15, 1992 has been around much longer.

It isn't enough to just X-Ray parents to avoid hip dysplasia. You need to X-Ray their sibblings, their parents, their parents' sibblings, and back several generations. Doing so reduces the chances of carrying the CHD genes, but doesn't eliminate it.

I find the thought of knowingly feeding more calcium appaling for 2 reasons. You can never be certain your puppy doesn't carry bad genes. Even if it doesn't, excess calcium can still cause joint problems.

Yes, there are 2 different AAFCO certifications. I didn't realize TOTW was using calculations, and not doing feeding trials. Although the AAFCO feeding trials are quite limited, I still trust them more than calculations.

I think these 2 quotes from the article contradict each other.

''We cannot cause hip dysplasia by what we feed UNLESS the dog carries the genes for hip dysplasia.''


''In fact, the incidence of all bone diseases, including hip dysplasia, increases dramatically when large or giant breeds are given any form of calcium supplementation.''

My own vet, who is a nationally known large breed joint specialist, says even the large breed puppy chows have too much calcium and it prevents the body from using the calcuim it needs in growing puppies. He also talks about a colony of Goldens, long plagued with CHD, dramatically reducing it by feeding adult chow starting with weaning. He was not able to give me a reference to that.

[missretta]

I think these 2 quotes from the article contradict each other.

''We cannot cause hip dysplasia by what we feed UNLESS the dog carries the genes for hip dysplasia.''


''In fact, the incidence of all bone diseases, including hip dysplasia, increases dramatically when large or giant breeds are given any form of calcium supplementation.''

Of course I can't speak for the author but I can speculate that when she says "We cannot cause hip dysplasia..." or "...the incidence of all bone diseases, including hip dysplasia..." she may be referring to hip dysplasia as a disease (the definition of disease: an impairment of health or a condition of abnormal functioning) or showing symptoms of HD. Years ago I had a lab that was graded as moderate HD, he never showed any signs of the disease his entire life and he lived a full long life.

[uplander]

Originally Posted by DarwinsMom

With all due respect, unless you've had your boy's hips/elbows xrayed and read by a radiologist, you don't KNOW he's ok

Is 1.5% a marketing gimmick for LB puppy foods? Not sure, I don't feed an LB puppy food but I sure do stay as low on the calcium as I can until the pup is older. Many, many dogs have grown up ok on higher calcium foods (I know someone who fed EVO from day one!), but why take the chance when there are plenty of good foods where you don't have to? OFA cleared parents, not overdoing forced exercise, feeding appropriately, keeping at a healthy weight, etc all stack the deck in your favor.

First of all he is OK.. X-rays are for dogs that will be bred.. Satch is Pet quality with a brother that will be shown.. and his X-rays are Ok..Same Genes, same food, same Mega-C plus.. He gives no indication for me to worry one bit.. He is the strongest dog I've ever owned..

Satch's Brother Grant...http://www.minefalls.com/grant.htm

What people fail to realize that when you feed a cup of Grain free like TOTW you almost feed 1/2 of a regular diet.. If you compare the # of cups needed.. in the end you feed less Calcium.. which never, ever gets brought up because the Pet Food Companies make more $$ per lb. of Lg. Breed puppy food sold..

TOTW has no more Calcium then Cal Nat Lamb, Eagle Pack Lg/Giant HS Puppy....Eagle Pack states they are the leaders in Lg. Breed Dog food...

Abady Pet food.. The Lg. Breed formula has 2.5 Calcium and has reduced the amount of Hip dysplasia in Guide dogs..http://therobertabadydogfoodcoltd.co...s%20Ingred.htm

Fidelco Guide Dog Foundation Inc.

Bloomfield, CT

To Whom It May Concern,

We have been using various Abady Foods at the Fidelco Guide Dog Foundation Inc. for twenty years on both our adult breeding stock and our puppies. In that period, as Mr. Abady, President of The Robert Abady Dog Food Company Ltd. anticipated, we eliminated hip dysplasia from our canine colony. In fact the hips on our German Shepherd’s breeding stock are text-book perfect as are the hips on all the puppies under our total control. Of the approximately two thousand puppies we have placed in foster homes for socialization, ninety percent are dysplasia free and only ten percent evidenced it mildly. We attribute this to, possibly, our lack of rigid feeding control over these particular puppies that are placed in foster homes. Prior to using Abady, fifty percent of our puppies developed hip dysplasia, some of it severe, even crippling. Prior to using Abady we fed National brands.

I can say with certainty that in our experience, the proper combination of Abady foods when fed as directed, will not only prevent hip dysplasia but develop thoroughly sound animals.

I might add that in twenty years of feeding Abady foods to our German Shepherd colony, we have not experienced any incidence of bloat or torsion.

Out of gratitude to the Abady Company and to Mr. Abady personally, I give my permission to the Abady Company to use this statement as needed.