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  1. #21
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverfz View Post
    She has 2 rounds of training and we will return to do agility or nose work this month. She does real good in training .very focused .

    Seems the only thing I can do is manage her and plan to build a fence next year . she is always on her lead outside .she has started to hang out in the backyard for 30 minutes or so on her own

    She always escaped to be with the kids in the backyard 3 times she got out.

    She is still baby still and a work in progress .

    I do not trust a wireless fence for now.

    Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
    Fences are a good thing. The fact that we have one is the ONLY reason I will let them out in the backyard without direct supervision. And even then, only as long as it takes to do their business. If we didn't have one, my dogs would be in e-collars and I'd be sitting on the back stoop with a transmitter in my hand every time they needed to pee or poo.

    "Two rounds of training..." It seems to me this indicates that the dog got trained apart from yourself. (If I'm wrong, you can straighten me out.) W/out doubt, I'd bet the dog respects the person who did the training. This doesn't translate to you. Trust me, I've used a pro. I'm not ashamed to admit it. But this pro (who cost me about what it would take to send Rocket Dog to friggin' YALE for a semester!) spent time teaching me as much or more than she taught the dog.

    (1) Build a fence. (2) Don't let your dog out of your sight. (3) Keep a long-line on your dog. If you can't run very fast... make it a really long line. Only let your dog run... on a line... when you have him/her otherwise contained, as in a dog park or something. (4) Walk your dog on a leash daily to several times/day.

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  3. #22
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    Fences are a good thing. The fact that we have one is the ONLY reason I will let them out in the backyard without direct supervision. And even then, only as long as it takes to do their business. If we didn't have one, my dogs would be in e-collars and I'd be sitting on the back stoop with a transmitter in my hand every time they needed to pee or poo.

    "Two rounds of training..." It seems to me this indicates that the dog got trained apart from yourself. (If I'm wrong, you can straighten me out.) W/out doubt, I'd bet the dog respects the person who did the training. This doesn't translate to you. Trust me, I've used a pro. I'm not ashamed to admit it. But this pro (who cost me about what it would take to send Rocket Dog to friggin' YALE for a semester!) spent time teaching me as much or more than she taught the dog.

    (1) Build a fence. (2) Don't let your dog out of your sight. (3) Keep a long-line on your dog. If you can't run very fast... make it a really long line. Only let your dog run... on a line... when you have him/her otherwise contained, as in a dog park or something. (4) Walk your dog on a leash daily to several times/day.
    Agree. I got my first dog when I was 17 and I didn't live in a home with a fence until I was 37. I got my second dog when I was 25 and a year or two later, started fostering dogs. I also dog-sat for friends quite often. I used a long-line or a Flexi (don't use Flexis in public though) for late night last potty, standing on the porch, otherwise, even when I lived in Maine and it was so cold the schools closed down for fear of pipes breaking, I went outside with my dogs, walking them on a leash to exercise and potty them. If you don't have a fence and you want a well-trained, safe dog, this is just what you do. I have a fence now and I still go outside with my dogs and I never shut them outside. Sometimes in the summer I leave the back door open, but the dogs prefer to be with me and largely stay inside.

  4. #23
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    This probably won't help you at all but it's a good example of what can happen if your dog isn't really ready to be off leash.

    Hershey and Honey were almost two years old. I thought they were well trained for recall. I'd had one at a time off leash (both dogs on the walk, one leashed and one off alternating) and never had a problem. I always leashed when I came to a point where I couldn't see around a bend...perhaps there'd be another animal there and I didn't also want to take the chance that they'd spook anyone by being off. The areas we were in were ones where dogs were supposed to be leashed but lots of dogs were not (County/State parks and reservoir).

    I decided the time had come to see how they'd do off leash together and took them to a State park where there was less of a likelihood of meeting other dogs and where the gravel/dirt path ended at a shaky bridge (the bridge was stable but you could see the water below) and had a heavily treed hilly area on one side and a somewhat deep stream on the other. (Honey liked water, Hershey really didn't....neither would go in unless we were throwing something for them to fetch.)

    As we started walking, I'd let them go ahead, call them back, give treats and praise...repeat. As we were approaching a bend in the path, I called them back in anticipation of leashing them until we got past the bend....and they took off. They disappeared around the bend. Now...they started running fast before they could possibly have seen what was around the bend, so I had no clue that something had attracted them. We got around the bend and no dog...or any animal or person...was in sight. We called and called, paying close attention to the planted area to our left because they obviously weren't in the water....no dogs. We encountered a man with his....Weimaraner, if I remember correctly....he hadn't seen them "up ahead" but he'd keep an eye out for them. We got to the bridge and turned back (more than a mile). Calling...no dogs....frustrated and scared and envisioning hoofing through the massive underbrush on the hills to attempt to find our dogs. As I rounded the bend they'd disappeared at, I spotted Honey standing at the exact spot where we had last been walking when the dogs took off. Her instinct was to return to the place of last seeing us and wait (I understand from a hunter friend that when hunting dogs run off, the hunter will take off his/her jacket and put it on the ground where the dog last saw them and then come back later to find the dog curled up on the jacket. Honey's field retriever instinct must have been strong.) Honey started barking and fussing us out...jumping up and down the whole time (Honey was "dog on a pogo stick" and "bad hips waiting to happen" all the time anyway but she really unleashed her inner jumping bean that time.)

    No Hershey.

    I leashed Honey and we walked out to the little parking area off the road....constantly calling his name. Just as I got to the road, a van pulled up and the driver asked if I was looking for a Chocolate Lab. She had Hershey in her van. He had found his way 2 miles up that road and was in her backyard, playing with her litter of puppies. Oh my....I was so thankful and so happy to see my little fellow.

    Since her van was very identifiable (used for a business purpose), I looked to identify her house as we drove back out....we went to a pet store and got a big bag of Mother Hubbard treats for the puppies as a "thank you".

    Hah. Big bag of small treats for "puppies". The puppies were Great Danes. It was the thought that counted. (The woman actually invited Hersh back into the yard to continue playing but we'd decided that the dogs had had enough excitement for the day.

    I never trusted them off leash together again...just couldn't bring myself to do it. My guess is that what they'd heard/smelled around the bend was a herd of deer that they then chased off into the hills...with Honey returning and Hershey keeping going.

  5. #24
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    Interesting discussion. When I was Rally training with Bruce he was always excellent doing the training off leash. His recall was also very good for his age, very rarely did I have to say "here" more than once. We finished our RN on the first day of a 5 day show, we were entered for 3 of the days. We enter the ring for our first run in Advanced, get to the 5th sign, in the split second I pause with Bruce in a sit to look at the next sign, he takes off out of the ring to visit with a pretty little black Lab girl he had met earlier.

    Bruce passed away less than a month later, so I never go the chance to do another advanced run.

    My take away from this is no matter how good you think they are, they are thinking beings and anything can happen. The lady I train with told me that according to Mike Lardy, we take our dogs off leash much to early. Even when her dogs are solid with their training, she will still keep a short (6' to 110') training lead on them just in case, both in the field and when obedience training, including during classes. 2 years old is the youngest she will allow them true off leash, and will use an E-collar for field work. I'm not saying that she's right or wrong, but I've seen the results in how well trained her dogs are, and what she's achieved in the field and obedience and rally.

    One thing she does in training when she starts transitioning to off leash it to slip a piece of paracord through the d-ring on the dogs collar while healing, and at some point will let it slip from the collar. The dog still thinks they are leashed and do very well.

  6. #25
    Best Friend Retriever silverfz's Avatar
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    A lot of great inputs and thanks for the ideas.

    Ordered the Off leash control from amazon

    https://www.petplaygrounds.com/ as I do not have 5k around . I might get the parts for 1500$ and build this thing next summer.

    She had two 6 week training program. 1st puppy one we attended as a family with the 5 and 8 yr old. 2nd round it was me or the wife . She was spayed and I had to travel to india so she been out of training for 2 months now and will start again.

    Again, we started to let the kids play with her food and toys and teach her that toy and food aggression is not developed. she is excellent even with my 5 yr old in grabbing even her toys from her mouth or him moving her food bowel while eating.she is excellent in staying the car with the windows down [100 degree days] when we go to grab a bite in our road trips fast . she has done 12 hr days in the car. She is solid enough that she tags along to the all the stores and will wait in the car while we run in for errands. we leave with windows open . She has gone camping with no crate and been excellent. She will not rush out the door and wait for us to walk out and lock doors. again we train a lot on door manners for example.

    While on road trips she stays with us and will come out to do her potty run and hang out with me on rest areas. She is excellent in the camper where all he has to do is push the door open and take off. again we have been working on her from day 1 . My question was exercises and training to make her more reliable when say the car door is open in a rest area , some dogs are being walked by our camper etc. she has been solid in such cases but I wonder if there Is something I can do to further this.

    thanks
    Satz
    Last edited by silverfz; 11-22-2016 at 09:42 AM.

  7. #26
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    Interesting thread.

    I teach off-lead playtime (as opposed to off-lead Obedience work) pretty much the same as Labradorks, and to this day, if I have them running loose in the park (mostly wooded trails near the lake), I have a pocket of treats on me at all times. They often come running back to check in without even being called, which we randomly reinforce. I also keep a very close eye on our surroundings so I can spot bikers, dogs, wildlife etc before they do. The only time they really take off on me is when we get close to the lake and I always catch up to find them playing in the water, LOL. When Chloe was young, I did have to collar-condition her to “here” because she would run off so far and so fast that she wouldn’t hear me calling. She’s the only one that’s had that problem ... this has worked for all of mine. I’ve found with the puppies that when they are out alone with me they are much less adventurous and more likely to check in than when their mother is with us.

    I also agree that the dog escaping from the house/yard is a very different situation than being allowed off-lead while you are supervising. Cookie has been quite the escape artist, but thankfully she only escapes the yard to try and find us if we are out front (or the other day my daughter and I were walking Chloe 1/2 block away and she showed up). Each time we’ve attempted to fix the problem - for a while she was climbing/jumping the fence, so we extended the height with extra wire mesh and folded it inwards so when she tried to jump she’d hit her head. That worked great, but recently she figured out how to climb the gate, which doesn’t have the mesh on it ... yet. As I said though, she doesn’t wander - she just comes to find us.

    Off-lead in the Obedience ring is different. With my past few dogs, we’ve taught them to have so much focused attention that they don’t even really notice whether they are on or off lead and it’s been a seamless transition for them, as they’ve been taught to heel without the leash in the first place.
    Annette

    Cookie (HIT HC Jamrah's Legally Blonde, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015
    Sassy (HIT Jamrah's Blonde Ambition, UDX, OM2, BN) 6/4/2015

    Chloe (HIT HC OTCH Windsong's Femme Fatale, UDX4, OM6, RE) 6/7/2009

    And remembering:

    Scully (HC Coventry's Truth Is Out There, UD, TD, RN) 4/14/1996 - 6/30/2011
    Mulder (Coventry's I Want To Believe, UD, RN, WC) 5/26/1999 - 4/22/2015

    And our foster Jolie (Windsong's Genuine Risk, CDX) 5/26/1999 - 3/16/2014

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  8. #27
    Senior Dog Tanya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverfz View Post
    Again, we started to let the kids play with her food and toys and teach her that toy and food aggression is not developed. she is excellent even with my 5 yr old in grabbing even her toys from her mouth or him moving her food bowel while eating.she is excellent in staying the car with the windows down [100 degree days] when we go to grab a bite in our road trips fast . she has done 12 hr days in the car. She is solid enough that she tags along to the all the stores and will wait in the car while we run in for errands. we leave with windows open . She has gone camping with no crate and been excellent. She will not rush out the door and wait for us to walk out and lock doors. again we train a lot on door manners for example.

    While on road trips she stays with us and will come out to do her potty run and hang out with me on rest areas. She is excellent in the camper where all he has to do is push the door open and take off. again we have been working on her from day 1 . My question was exercises and training to make her more reliable when say the car door is open in a rest area , some dogs are being walked by our camper etc. she has been solid in such cases but I wonder if there Is something I can do to further this.

    thanks
    Satz
    I HIGHLY recommend you do some research on this technique before you continue to allow it. this recommendation has been discredited and has CAUSED more issues than it has helped.

    You want her to associate the kids to being near her food as a positive good thing because they ADD better food in he bowl (high value treat) but don't move her food (this way if they ever accidentily fall or push her food she'll have a highly positive association to them and unlikely to care). or hand feed. Have the kids hand feed her but don't let them bug her when she eats ro play with her food.

    Otherwise they should NOT bug her (i.e. pet her, stand near her). Similarly with toys, teach trade (trade for higher value) VS having kids take toys from her. Bring her a higher value toy to trade with. Again taking away can CAUSE more guarding because they now have to worry about the kids taking or playing with their stuff (VS associating them being around to good, more, better).

    Playing with your dog good idea or not? | Paws Abilities
    Last edited by Tanya; 11-22-2016 at 11:41 AM.

  9. #28
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barry581 View Post
    Interesting discussion. When I was Rally training with Bruce he was always excellent doing the training off leash. His recall was also very good for his age, very rarely did I have to say "here" more than once. We finished our RN on the first day of a 5 day show, we were entered for 3 of the days. We enter the ring for our first run in Advanced, get to the 5th sign, in the split second I pause with Bruce in a sit to look at the next sign, he takes off out of the ring to visit with a pretty little black Lab girl he had met earlier.

    Bruce passed away less than a month later, so I never go the chance to do another advanced run.

    My take away from this is no matter how good you think they are, they are thinking beings and anything can happen. The lady I train with told me that according to Mike Lardy, we take our dogs off leash much to early. Even when her dogs are solid with their training, she will still keep a short (6' to 110') training lead on them just in case, both in the field and when obedience training, including during classes. 2 years old is the youngest she will allow them true off leash, and will use an E-collar for field work. I'm not saying that she's right or wrong, but I've seen the results in how well trained her dogs are, and what she's achieved in the field and obedience and rally.

    One thing she does in training when she starts transitioning to off leash it to slip a piece of paracord through the d-ring on the dogs collar while healing, and at some point will let it slip from the collar. The dog still thinks they are leashed and do very well.
    I don't use the shark line or the paracord because I train my dog to want to be with me, not try to trick him into staying because he doesn't think he has a choice. If we're at a place where he'd rather do XXX than work with me, I need to work harder on the relationship and making work more rewarding and better than XXX. You can't bring treats, toys, training collars and shark lines in the ring, but you can bring your relationship and personal play! Just a preference on my end. But for pet dog stuff, I think that dragging a long line as long as it's safe, is wise. Also, tabs are good, as long as it's safe. I also agree that we let our dogs off lead too early, allowing them to self-reward and create bad habits. I mean, if the dog takes off, they go to play with a dog, say hi to a human, roll in something, eat something, chase something, jump in a lake, eat their bird, etc., they've learned that running off is AWESOME. It probably depends on the dog, also, and what their personal motivators are. When Linus got his first pigeon, the first thing he wanted to do when he picked it up was to bring it back, show it to me and have a party while he held onto it and wiggled around wildy wagging his tail. When my friend's chocolate, with similar training and at the same age, got his first pigeon, he wanted to run away with it and eat it!

  10. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverfz View Post




    Again, we started to let the kids play with her food and toys and teach her that toy and food aggression is not developed. she is excellent even with my 5 yr old in grabbing even her toys from her mouth or him moving her food bowel while eating..

    thanks
    Satz
    I'm past being surprised by most of what I read on forums - but even so sometimes things really stand out and make me cringe. This really, really horrified me.
    I have owned/bred/worked/trained dogs all my life - never even with the hard working lines Shepherds have I had a dog show aggression towards me over food or toys,(nor would I ever expect it) BUT never, never. never would I mess around with their food when they are eating - (except to add to it)! The idea of encouraging a child to do so stunned me totally - are there really folk out there advocating this behaviour??

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  12. #30
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverfz View Post
    A lot of great inputs and thanks for the ideas.

    Ordered the Off leash control from amazon

    https://www.petplaygrounds.com/ as I do not have 5k around . I might get the parts for 1500$ and build this thing next summer.

    She had two 6 week training program. 1st puppy one we attended as a family with the 5 and 8 yr old. 2nd round it was me or the wife . She was spayed and I had to travel to india so she been out of training for 2 months now and will start again.

    Again, we started to let the kids play with her food and toys and teach her that toy and food aggression is not developed. she is excellent even with my 5 yr old in grabbing even her toys from her mouth or him moving her food bowel while eating.she is excellent in staying the car with the windows down [100 degree days] when we go to grab a bite in our road trips fast . she has done 12 hr days in the car. She is solid enough that she tags along to the all the stores and will wait in the car while we run in for errands. we leave with windows open . She has gone camping with no crate and been excellent. She will not rush out the door and wait for us to walk out and lock doors. again we train a lot on door manners for example.

    While on road trips she stays with us and will come out to do her potty run and hang out with me on rest areas. She is excellent in the camper where all he has to do is push the door open and take off. again we have been working on her from day 1 . My question was exercises and training to make her more reliable when say the car door is open in a rest area , some dogs are being walked by our camper etc. she has been solid in such cases but I wonder if there Is something I can do to further this.

    thanks
    Satz
    Good to head back to training.

    Messing with a dog's food bowl can actually can teach a dog to be food aggressive. Your kids are old enough to leave her alone while she eats and you can do different exercises with bones and other similar items, like trading her high value treats for the item, then giving it back, but mostly just leave her alone with food. This is really an old-school train of thought and has caused many issues.

    I would never leave my windows down with the dogs loose. That is crazy! Especially if you are afraid of her taking off. I would also never leave my dog in the car in 100 degree weather without being crated, windows down, hatch up, car covered in reflective covers. Dogs are stolen more often than you think. Around here, where we have a homeless camp/drug/alcohol issue, some of the homeless people are into stealing dogs and selling them to each other or trading for food or drugs. Over the summer a car was stolen with a dog in it and the guy left the car somewhere with the windows up and when they found it the dog was dead inside. Or, if it is 100 degrees out, someone might take her because they think leaving her in the car is cruel or illegal. It is also a liability. If someone reaches into the car to pet her and she bites, you may be sued.

    Put her on a leash when you are taking her out of the car. It is very simple. Why must she always be off leash?

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