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  • Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
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    1. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by IRISHWISTLER View Post
      Richard Wolters was a resource for those seeking to train their own retriever during the later 70's and early 80's, his relevance now is relegated to the status of a footnote. There are many more effective training programs available today and if your trainer is extolling Wolters as "the way" - RUN! FASTER, FASTER, FASTER . . .

      THE DOG WHISTLER 

      Ok. I didn't read his book. Can someone explain to me, or give me examples, of why his methods are out dated?

      Sounds like the trainer worked very close to him.

    2. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by annkie View Post
      Thanks for the input Labradorks and Tanya. It's very hard for me to figure out the "correct" way to go about this. My experience is beginner and I only really know a Labs temperament. I talked to a trainer who works with hunting labs and spaniels last Thursday and she says she uses pincher collars on her spaniels. So... apparently this breed CAN take that.

      I took Archie on a walk today using the gentle leader. He let me put it one with zero issues. Just sat there calmly and let me put it on. I was expecting a fight. He pawed at his face a bit and I immediately took him to the kitchen and gave him some treats of cheese while he had the gentle leader on. The walk wasn't bad. He cooperated 95% of the time. Resistance was significantly less than yesterday. I'm still trying to get the timing right. I don't want to be yanking/pulling/snapping, whatever, at him every time his head goes in front of my leg. That ends up being very frequent. I'm assuming it should get better the more we walk. On a positive note, we walked by a person on the sidewalk today right next to us and Archie only wanted to sniff him. No fear! Yes!

      Regarding guests entering the house. I was under the impression that you should have the dog on a leash with treats. Person enters the house. Tell the dog to sit or something and treat to keep his attention on you and away from guest. Then the dog can greet the guest. If dog jumps correct with leash. The trainer's method was this. I had Archie on the leash though not holding it. She rang the doorbell and knocked on the door. Entered. While Archie went all crazy trying to jump/greet her she said "no!" and walked into him backing him up to the rug saying "back up". The rug became the line he's not suppose to cross when guests enter. So we did that a handful of times until he got the point.

      She kept trying to tell me that he's not as sensitive as I seem to think. I don't know anymore. Jules was totally different. I even asked her about the hanging tale and she told me that's it's just relaxed. I was like "what?!" My Jules's tale was ALWAYS up and wagging. The one time in his life it hung is when he had an infected anal gland lol. She barely believed me.

      Anyway, I don't think 100% positive training methods will work with Archie because he's not always food motivated and when he's too excited my affection doesn't matter either. So, I feel like correction needs to happen. However, my approach will me more gentle than hers. For example, on the walk she physically put him on her side. I prefer to lead him to my side. She also said that I should stop having conversations with him. I don't agree. The more I talk to him the more he's going to understand what I'm saying and my mood.

      I'm not sure about the online classes. I need someone to show me exactly what/how to do it, watch me do it and correct me. I'm not gonna get that from online classes. Heck, I barely got that from in person classes!

      I could see today he was a bit different. As if he was "put in his place". Not sad or anything. Was happy and playful. Just really didn't push his limits as much as usual.
      There are different lines in different breeds. Just because some spaniels can take certain things doesn't mean your spaniel will.

      Gentle leaders/haltis are not meant to be used for corrections. Instead of jerking him and potentially hurting him, can you just stop and call him back to position and as soon as he is back in position, start moving forward again? I hate pinch collars, but I'd rather see a person walking with one correctly than jerking a dog with a halti or gentle leader. You should be training him in the house, then the yard, then on walks. Slowly and helping him be right. You don't just take them out and punish them for doing something wrong that they don't even know is wrong to begin with. It's really not fair to dogs or even humans.

      I'd also be nervous about the entering and greeting thing. The dog is sketchy with people and having someone come into your house, yell at your dog and walk into him yelling at him is not going to help. I'd just manage my dog versus doing this if I had to, which I do because I don't have company enough to worry about it or practice. I mostly meet friends out in public places. Can you crate the dog with a bone when people are over and let him out once he's calm, on a leash, helping him sit for pets or something?

      OMG...+R training is NOT 100% positive. Most dogs do not find being denied of their reinforcer to be positive! A reinforcer is walking forward, going to sniff something, getting food, retrieving something, going in/out a door, going in/out of a car, etc. You teach them that they can have or do whatever for whatever it is you ask. It's showing the dog what you want and helping him be right vs. not showing the dog what you want and then punishing him when he's wrong.

      The online classes are not for everyone. But they are interactive and super informative. They watch videos of you and point out exactly what you are doing right and wrong at the exact time on the video. Sometimes they do screen shots and circle things. Sometimes they video themselves doing something for you as an example. There are cats learning how to retrieve and hold items from these online classes. People are getting very high level titles in a variety of dog sports from the online classes, some are even from other countries and English is their second language. There are people with mental and physical disabilities learning from them, even, as well as children. These instructors are the best of the best and very well-versed in how to teach online. They provide a ton of attention. So basically, you spend about an hour a day with them about five days per week. Again, you have to be committed and serious about the work you're willing to put in because it is like a college course with lectures, practicing, communicating with classmates and your instructor, etc.

      If you chatter nonstop your dog won't listen when you do have something to say. They'll tune you out. Also, your dog shouldn't have to worry about your mood; it's not his problem. You can't be emotional when you train your dog because you can't be consistent.

    3. #13
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      Archi is fine with people inside the house. He has occasional issues with singles on empty streets. I know. It's weird and doesn't even happen every time.


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    4. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by annkie View Post
      Ok. I didn't read his book. Can someone explain to me, or give me examples, of why his methods are out dated?

      Sounds like the trainer worked very close to him.
      The book was published in 1964. Much has changed relative to the understanding of how dogs most effectively learn that are not addressed in the book.

      Technology has changed dramatically with regards to training tools allowing one to make variable and instantaneous correction at great distances. The "dog games" have evolved to much more demanding levels for both K9's and trainers alike. The list goes on and on and on. WATER DOG served a purpose in it's day and got many folks involved with retrievers that may otherwise not have developed such interest, meself included. Some folks ascribe to a single philosophy or methodology and remain stagnated because they will not take time to explore the changing dynamic around them. Your "trainer" sounds like one o' those people though I only base this on your description. Read the book, then read others by the likes o' Lardy, Graham, and other published trainers and make your own determination on what might suit you and your dog(s) best. You may not be capable of training to the level you desire without direction, but you might also be misdirected without taking the initiative to do some research for yourself. My library is deep and for good reason. I own books that I have learned much from and others that I consider junk. I have taken time to dissect that which I have studied and gained experience through practical application and notation of what works effectively for the dogs I work with and that which does not. The operative word being "effectively". I do not subscribe to one size fits all training methods and I feel a competent trainer is one that remains flexible in meeting the needs of the individual dogs he works with, an approach that has worked well for me. JMHO.

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      Last edited by IRISHWISTLER; 12-23-2017 at 10:29 PM.
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    6. #15
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      I do not know about a hurting a dog.

      I asked about e collars and got flamed here. But I do not train with them as gigi is never going to hunt or do any shows. On the other hand her jumping , crazyness and anxiety is so down now. I constantly asked if she is on a ecollar by family and friends which I do not even have any more.
      She was nutz. It was great to have a in home training . She talked to us on training our reaction and how to handle it for an hour plus.

      Last night we had people came over who have been bowled over by gigi and were all confused why she is calm , no jumping and after her alert bark when told to back off, she did.

      She was 20 months when we started and see these changes in a week or so. So I do think dogs think about a bad behaviour as behaviour that we have told the dog is acceptable. When we tell them otherwise they listen.

      All she needed was to calm her excitement level. When calm all her commands , behaviours are solid. She even did a down atay when a few dogs approached and sniffed her. Again seems all her issues were excitement level related. She grabbed a neighbour hand a few months back and we started in home training
      Only 2 sessions and see a massive improvement .

      You got to feel.confortable with the trainer and also find one you like to.work with. A big part of training is working as a team. You,your dog and the trainer . Got to have synergy.

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      Charlotte K. (12-27-2017)

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