I HATE the hold!

[TuMicks]

There was a famous pioneer HT guy (I'm sorry I don't remember his name) but he would stop his dog with a whistle, then just yell "GEE" or "HAW". And even though you'd never here this at a HT when dogs are under judgement, but when hunting, a lot of folks will use the "Hunt 'em up" or "Get in there" commands. And if my dog is hovering around something with a puzzled look like "you want me to pick up WHAT?" I tell them "Fetchitup" and there you go. So it sounds like your Sunshine is a pretty complete retriever.

[Labradorks]

I did clicker training hold with Oban. A person on the clicker internet advisory was helping me. I even videoed for her. I thought it was too slow for Oban. Oh no, she said, slow was key. I ditched it and sped it up and he was so much better. It WAS too slow for him. Mind you, our needs for rally were not the same as for field training. Can you say who did the DVD?

My first obedience trainer as well as my first field trainer, both wanted me to hold his chin and stroke his head while saying "hold" but that freaked him out and made him hate the dumb bell after just a few gentle, short tries.

I brought it up with my new obedience trainer a couple months ago. First we had to get him to fall back in love with the dumb bell. So, I've been working on that and it did not take long. He is all over me for the dumb bell now. Loves to retrieve it.

He will hold it while walking with me, thinks it's a game. He will not hold it while just sitting still.

The DVD is by Janice Gunn: Janice Gunn's Clicked Hold and Retrieve. I am watching it now and will see how it goes...

[indybindy]

I taught my puppy to be completely fine with me just cupping and holding his face. He learned to come to front, me hold his face and be completely still. So I had that foundation lone before he needed to hold a dumbbell.

Break it down further.

I also totally support a forced fetch but it does not TEACH anything, including the hold. It actually doesn't teach fetch either. It's a conditioned response to pressure. So, TEACH the parts first.

[windycanyon]

If you can teach a STAY (a REAL STAY as in don't move a paw!), you can teach a Hold. If your stay foundation is shaky, so will your Hold. A hold is the Stay for the mouth.

I had started to teach an Open obed class in Jan for the first 4 wks, then had to take a break in Feb for puppies at which time another instructor picked up where I left off. I returned last night to the next continuing class which I joined as a student w/ my 4yo Tango who has competed in Open a few times but has not Q'd yet (mainly broad jump, but last time went around the High on the return w/ her dumbbell... she's a bit lazy at times!). I was quite impressed w/ who "got it" (the Hold which was one of my main focuses). One of my Lab friends has come so far w/ her dog but she had to step into a new zone to understand what worked for HER dog. She's not only got a decent Hold, but she also has come so far on basic work ethic and focus while heeling. Sometimes you just have to experiment and really, our labs are so flexible. Another new student to the group (very accomplished obed, herding, etc competitor) had done a fantastic job on her own w/FF on her Terv--- faster reach for the dumbbell (off the ground, out 4 feet etc) than even my lab in the class. It's a beautiful thing when it all comes together but you aren't going to teach that style if you continue to just "ask" for the response. A trained retrieve carries over to so much more than just the retrieve too.

[xracer4844]

My dog isn't trained to retriever, however we do have a solid hold and I also have experience with hunting.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that if you have trouble with the hold, you bang a stake in the ground with a light leash just as a safety in hopes that you can stop them and correct the break of the hold.

I've seen it done this way, and I've trained it similarly.

[Labradorks]

If you can teach a STAY (a REAL STAY as in don't move a paw!), you can teach a Hold. If your stay foundation is shaky, so will your Hold. A hold is the Stay for the mouth.

I had started to teach an Open obed class in Jan for the first 4 wks, then had to take a break in Feb for puppies at which time another instructor picked up where I left off. I returned last night to the next continuing class which I joined as a student w/ my 4yo Tango who has competed in Open a few times but has not Q'd yet (mainly broad jump, but last time went around the High on the return w/ her dumbbell... she's a bit lazy at times!). I was quite impressed w/ who "got it" (the Hold which was one of my main focuses). One of my Lab friends has come so far w/ her dog but she had to step into a new zone to understand what worked for HER dog. She's not only got a decent Hold, but she also has come so far on basic work ethic and focus while heeling. Sometimes you just have to experiment and really, our labs are so flexible. Another new student to the group (very accomplished obed, herding, etc competitor) had done a fantastic job on her own w/FF on her Terv--- faster reach for the dumbbell (off the ground, out 4 feet etc) than even my lab in the class. It's a beautiful thing when it all comes together but you aren't going to teach that style if you continue to just "ask" for the response. A trained retrieve carries over to so much more than just the retrieve too.

We've got stay down and he really knows what it means, which was evident in teaching the stand/stay, which I never really taught. Once he knew stand and I asked for a stay, that was that. He's well-proofed in the stay.

He reaches for the dumb bell in any position, really loves it, retrieves it, even held it over a jump, we just don't have the hold, mostly at a sit. He'll hold it while walking. As IndyBindy mentioned, I am clicker training the chin rest and muzzle hold right now, per the video. My instructor said to get him used to holding his muzzle, and I think this was what she meant but I either did not ask the right question or she did a poor job explaining it. The video, so far, is awesome!

[Labradorks]

My dog isn't trained to retriever, however we do have a solid hold and I also have experience with hunting.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that if you have trouble with the hold, you bang a stake in the ground with a light leash just as a safety in hopes that you can stop them and correct the break of the hold.

I've seen it done this way, and I've trained it similarly.

How would this make them hold the dumb bell?

[xracer4844]

sorry labradorks! i misread

[TuMicks]

I also totally support a forced fetch but it does not TEACH anything, including the hold. It actually doesn't teach fetch either. It's a conditioned response to pressure. So, TEACH the parts first.

You are correct that FF in most field retriever programs is indeed part of a whole process and does exactly what you suggest. It teaches them that they are in control of the pressure. They can both avoid it and turn it off. The "fetch" then is just the launching pad for the rest of the curriculum. However, I very much disagree that it doesn't teach "fetch". It does. In spades. It takes an instinct to pick up and carry things (they are all retrievers, after all) into a reflexive response... and from that into directed drive to retrieve.

[IRISHWISTLER]

I use and highly advocate the methodology of Evan Graham, a frequent and highly qualified contributor to this and several other retriever related forums. Evan Graham's books and DVD's thoroughly treat the processes of "HOLD" and "FORCE FETCH" for the development of a rock solid conditioned retrieve.


I start the "HOLD" conditioning using a "paint roller", it's lightwieght and has a texture that dogs seem receptive to.


I next move to a variety of "training bucks", I like this type as it helps reinforce holding the item in the middle.


I progress to other items that I desire the retriever to HOLD. The desired behavior is continually reinforced. Here, a foam Dokken training bumper being integrated into the training of HOLD.


Through proper HOLD conditioning, a dog will ultimately HOLD any item on command.


It all comes together after "FORCE FETCH" conditioning. Here TRAD holds a beautiful Black Duck after having just made an enthusiastic, driven, and stylish water retrieve.

Faugh a Ballagh,
Irishwhistler & TRAD