E Collar? A whole new thing for me. Need your help

[Labradorks]

I've been to Turkey, even to Izmir, so while I did not live there, I can see in my mind these issues that you are having. Lots of stray dogs, cats, and plenty of waste and garbage. I remember arriving in Istanbul and being shocked at how everyone just throws their garbage onto the side of the roads. It would be a challenge with a dog, especially with a Lab! I honestly would not expect a Lab or other mouthy breed to have the drop it/leave it thing for at least a year. It will be a constant challenge for you and you'll need to be consistent. I still have to remind Sam not to pick up random stuff on the sidewalk and he is over the age of four and we do not have the litter problems that you have, not even close.

As others have said, the e-collar is not the answer. She is just a baby! She does not know better and e-collars are not for training purposes. Not only that, but you should never use one without the assistance of a trained, trusted professional. Not only that, but if not trained properly (or, conditioned as users like to call it) your dog can learn when the collar is on or off and in some cases, they blow right through it, even at the highest level. Saw it happen just last weekend, in fact! I'm not sure about Kelly McCoy's posts as I don't quite understand them, personally, but, personal opinions aside regarding the use of e-collars in training, I think she's been doing this awhile. E-collars in the hands of a green dog owner is just a really bad idea. Puppies can be frustrating and demand attention. There are no shortcuts, just a lot of work, for a long time, and quite a bit of patience. If you do things right and do it consistently (that means both you and your DH) you will see results. It is what it is!

Based on your other post with the growling, and with this post, it sounds like you are doing training with force, not positive methods. For example, picking her up, grabbing things from her, taking things out of her mouth, and at one point you said your DH yells at her and uses "physical sanctions" and that she responds with aggression. I don't know what physical sanctions means, but you said he did not hurt her, so if I had to guess, I'd say that there is some collar grabbing going on? All of these things can easily make a dog become defensive and you're going to get the growling, the running off, and the difficult behavior. Sometimes it can lead to biting, depending on the dog and the situation, but that would be an extreme case, though one you want to avoid at all costs.

Have you worked on leash walking? If so, how?

Why don't you always have a treat or high value item in your pocket when you are walking her? If she has an issue with picking up dangerous items, it really could be a matter of life and death to have cheese or hotdogs in your pocket. It's inconvenient, maybe even gross, but a small price to pay for A. her safety, B. her training, and C. your relationship with your dog. If you continue to physically take things out of her mouth by hand, eventually she will run off with something that could hurt her and you are creating behavior problems that could very easily turn into resource guarding. She's already exhibiting behaviors indicating that she could go down that road, according to your posts, so I'd want to change my training methods right away if I were in your shoes.

Puppies have a hard time listening when there are other dogs around. It's life with a puppy, whether her or there. We don't have the stray dog situation that you have, but it's still something to work through and that will take lots of time to get a handle on. And, you can't expect to rely on her off-leash in a city environment for a long time, if ever. Same goes with the recall. And, if you continue to take things away from her when she comes to you, you can kiss your recall good-bye.

Is there a resource you can use for training? Denise Fenzi has an online training program. Much of what she does is performance related, but not all of it. Her methods are positive and really engage the dog. Also, the Ian Dunbar books, videos, and information is really good and geared toward newer dog owners. I find him to be very sensible and easy to follow.

[TuMicks]

Sipsi...

I have a big question: Why do you think you can walk a dog off-lead anywhere? I have a 7 year old dog, largely trained by a professional, who has a Master Hunter title, has qualified to go to our Master National (a very big deal) who responds to whistle commands and takes hand signals... and I don't walk her off-lead. If the environment is not safe, she is on lead at my side. Always. 100%.

I don't like to take my dogs to the dog-park. There, I know my dogs can't run away from me (at least, no further than the enclosure)... but I don't trust other dogs. I don't go there.

Our roads, sidewalks and streets are cleaner than yours and mostly people obey leash laws (not very many strays.) Doesn't matter. My dogs are ALWAYS on lead.*

There is no Sacred Law of Dog Happiness that says canines have a right to roam and sniff at leisure. Dogs are remarkably evolved to learn to do what is appropriate in their "pack" (which is you. You and Latte are a pack of 2).

*Sipsi... yes, my dogs are trained to hunt at some distance from me. But in order to train our dogs, sometimes we drive them more than an hour away from our homes to very remote rural settings. We have 4 wheeled drive trucks and go way far away from any roads. That's the only time we have them off-lead.

[capra]

Hi sipsi,

Wellcome to the board, sorry I'm a little bit late on this

I'll not say much on E-Collar since you already got very good comments. I too certainly not recommend it. Not at this age and not in the future.
Firstly, e-collar must be used only by a professional, secondly there are nicer methods.

She is a tiny baby and way too young for e-collar. I didn't start Luna with an e-collar until she was 18 months old, and that was ONLY because a life-or-death situation occurred.

You see here doubledip1 used an e-collar because it was a life or death situation.

And some other people on this board also used it because they have working dogs, I can relate this, for others, I see no reason actually.

I have two dogs, 10 and 7 years old and living in Istanbul. I passed BH test with my older dog years ago, a kind of obedience test. There you're giving commands when your dog is at least 30 meters away from you. There are other dogs around, people, traffic, lots of smell, noise etc. And I didn't use any instruments to train my dog. Just food and praise.

I know Turkey is not the best country for dogs. We have stray dogs, we have garbage on the streets but I also know that there are safe places for dogs. Especially in Izmir. You know Istanbul is worse in that matter.

I quickly found some photos showing some places that I used to train my dogs.

One of my favourite is ballparks. I used them a lot. Before letting dogs free inside I check the ground. Up to know I found nothing, they are clean. It is best to use them early in the morning because nobody will be there. You can train your dog there or you may just play with her.



Parks. There are plenty of them


will continue...

[capra]

We have too many parks. Again it will be better to use these parks early in the morning.



Then we have places a little far away from the city center. I don't have a car so I have limited access to these places. If you have car that will be great.

[capra]

I also free them at the seaside. Again very early in the morning in summer and at any time in winter.
I always check around for food or anything else. After a while it becomes habit and you're doing it automatically each time. I always have my eyes on them. I'm always on alert. If I'm alone I don't free both of them at the same time. It's one by one. I don't believe that you can trust a labrador especially on food, I do not, never.



I train them late in the evening. Here is caddebostan, one of the very popular places in Istanbul because it is at the seaside, it is large and green. There are permanent stray dogs here also. There are always some people running, walking, biking, just sitting and relaxing, playing with their dogs, eating, drinking and I can still find a place to work with my dogs. At the beginning early and late hours is logical. You will need to be as much as distraction free. And you see here in these photos I have their attention. I have focus. Once you have focus then you can also work during the popular hours.



Another pic showing the eye-contact. You need to have this.

[capra]

I uploaded too many photos I hope there won't be any problems :/

So, you just need a praise. Be it food or toy. I use food for my older dog, and toys for the little one.


Working with Cilek


and Tilya in the very beginning



I used the long rope as a precaution. I didn't need it because I had her attention all the time.

Lastly my comments:

Here's why

• I use a 6 feet long leash. I can't let her off leash to sniff and explore because the areas she wants to explore is not safe. So it becomes me being dragged after her. I'm afraid she is getting used to the idea of me chasing after her I don't understand why you're chasing after her. Just walk with her. Do not let her to drag you. She doesn't have to go whereever she wants.
• I can't use a long leash all the time because there is always a stray dog coming towards Latte to play and get knotted by the leash. Yes you can't use the long leash always and you don't need to. You need to use it only when you train her which is half an hour in a day at most. And only in the beginning.
• Latte often eats whatever she finds on the ground and she always finds stool. There are SO MANY idiots that doesn't pick up their dogs' stool from the ground. An there are the stray dogs' stool of course But how? you should not let her to eat anything. Do not off leash her anywhere which is not safe. I still insist that there are safe places
• I hear about stray dogs poisoning by some mean people. They put some food around! which is really very very rare but yes you have to be carefull which means again, you will not off leash her until you have a strong connection with her.
• She ALWAYS finds bones on the ground. EVERYDAY. And I don't have a treat with a higher value than a bone to make her Leave It or Drop It. I put my hand into Latte's mouth to take the bone and Latte is fed up with it. (I can't blame her) She started to run away from me when there's a bone in her mouth which is a BAD thing to learn. You have to see the bone before her and change your direction or be ready to say "No!"
• She never listens to me when there are other dogs. I'm working on it though but I haven't made any progress yet. Which is very normal at this age.

So

• I NEED to rely on her off leash. I NEED her to come towards me reliably. I need to walk her off leash comfortable Why you need to? You should walk your dog with a leash. But if you're planning to off leash your dog in the public and she won't listen to you, that will be disaster not only for your dog but also for others. I trust my dogs but I do not off leash them without a reason and only in safe places.
• I NEED to make her drop anything in her mouth. It is not difficult to teach this. Don't worry.
• Do you think I should use an E Collar? No
• I've been doing some research about E Collars but do you offer any resources that I can find the best information? (I am looking into kellymccoy's posts) No
• Do I always have to use the E Collar or is it something like clicker that only teaches the behavior and fades out? don't know
• Is there an age limit to use an E Collar? Can I use it on 4 month old? Yes, No

I finished it YAY

[SunDance]

Hi, Oya ~ (don't know if you still use "lara", so...)

Thank you for taking the time to respond with so many great pictures (I now have my Cilek/Tilya fix and sipsi has some wonderful recommendations). You certainly have the "stray dog" thing figured out.

I don't know what I'd do if I had to deal with strays with my two. Danny got reactive at about the age of two...not really aggressive, though, he just doesn't want other dogs bothering him (and certainly not sniffing...oh no, those are called privates for a reason). Sunnie is friendly depending on how the other dog approaches (calm) and she is definitely not happy with dogs that just come running up. I'd be following your advice for sure.

Hope to see you around more often now!

[capra]

Hi, Oya ~ (don't know if you still use "lara", so...)

Thank you for taking the time to respond with so many great pictures (I now have my Cilek/Tilya fix and sipsi has some wonderful recommendations). You certainly have the "stray dog" thing figured out.

I don't know what I'd do if I had to deal with strays with my two. Danny got reactive at about the age of two...not really aggressive, though, he just doesn't want other dogs bothering him (and certainly not sniffing...oh no, those are called privates for a reason). Sunnie is friendly depending on how the other dog approaches (calm) and she is definitely not happy with dogs that just come running up. I'd be following your advice for sure.

Hope to see you around more often now!

Hi Barb, my real name is Oya so yes I can use it

Stray dogs are sometimes really difficult. I think I get used to them. I learned how to handle them.
Dogs in the neighbourhood are mostly the same. When I move to a new place at first they react, they are barking constantly because they don't know Cilek and Tilya and it is their home. Not ours. First I'm shouting at them and making 1 or 2 strong steps towards them. So they know that I'm here and I will not ran away. Cilek and Tilya waits for me, they do not bark towards them. When they were younger they were also trying to handle the case That was making the situation worse. Then somehow we made an aggreement and their duty was to stay silent and wait.

After a few days they start to know us and I start to learn their characters. Most of them are very mellow, nice dogs. Normally aggressive dogs are not allowed to live in streets. They are put to shelters. So you will generally assume that these dogs, which are living in the city center, will not hurt you or your dog. But of course if you do not behave correctly they may bit your dog or at least there may be a fight between them. Up to now there was just a single case happened to us. I ignored a barking dog, just walked away. I was in a different town and this dog saw us for the first time. Then he run behing us and bit Cilek in her back which was a very very little bite, nothing happened. Usually, dogs coming from rural areas may be dangerous. Because they are hungry and they're living away from people. Or in some regions there are too many dogs being a huge pack and you know, they are pack. You have to be more carefull.

I like stray dogs, I knew them, I have kibble for them also, they're coming in front of the house when they don't find anything else. I'm their B plan
But I hate that we have stray dogs. Not good firstly for the stray dogs themselves and anybody else. We still couldn't solve this stray dog peoblem.

And I use this throwing a rock trick If I really don't want them to come towards us, either they seem aggresive or I feel like Cilek and Tilya will go aggressive to them I pretend I take a rock from the ground and throw them by saying go away. They always fooled with this trick But usually first making my dogs not to react (telling them no and wait) and then shouting at them with making 1-2 strong steps forward works.

If I decide my dogs and they come close and sniff each other I always talk with a nice voice. Look who is here, good boy, come here etc. And I'm the one who meets the stray dog first, putting my hand to her mouth to let him smell me. And of course I'm always on alert, checking their body language, both of my dogs and them.

A friend of mine can't take her german shepherd for a long walk because he is very reactive to stray dogs, he is huge, my friend is small and there are too many stray dogs in her area. So it is not always easy to handle.

I just wrote a book I guess

[swanska]

With the bone issue...can you get a safe bone (something acceptable in the dog industry) and teach drop it/leave it with that? When I purchased one of those big bones from the store with dried meat on it, I was told to remove it every 5 minutes and then give it back in an hour -- something to do with toughing up the gums/teeth -- plus it gave me the opportunity to inspect it for splintering. I would trade a piece of hotdog, a walk or car ride for the bone. This taught Shadow that he could give it up, get a yummy treat and then sooner or later, he would get his bone back. After all of the meat was vanquished, Shadow usually lost interest in the bone -- he never was interested in going after marrow or spending hours chewing on it. However, I left the bones sitting around for a long time -- they became part of the furniture. You could also take these bones and smear chicken fat, peanut butter or some other tasty things that might be similar to what you find on your walks.

I now have a wild hawk and fox who seem to drop random things in my backyard. Even though I will do a daily inspection, somehow, Shadow will manage to find a hotdog bun, a skull or a big bone (once, at my parents, he brought me a live turtle!). He acquires a odd expression/behavior and I glance down to see what is up and he is "look what I've got" and has a mouth full of something -- but he does not chew or swallow it. I command "drop it" and he does. I grab the offending thing. Throw it over the gate that leads to the trash and then turn and give him big belly rubs as a reward. Then I go throw the item in the trash. This seems to work and reinforce safe behavior and he rarely gets tempted by the chicken bones that seem to appear on the sidewalks around here.

[sipsi]

I do love this forum. I'm so thankful that you took time and gave me precious recommendations. THANK YOU.

it sounds like you are doing training with force, not positive methods. For example, picking her up, grabbing things from her, taking things out of her mouth, and at one point you said your DH yells at her and uses "physical sanctions" and that she responds with aggression. I don't know what physical sanctions means, but you said he did not hurt her, so if I had to guess, I'd say that there is some collar grabbing going on? ...


Have you worked on leash walking? If so, how?


Why don't you always have a treat or high value item in your pocket when you are walking her?

If you continue to physically take things out of her mouth by hand, eventually she will run off with something that could hurt her and you are creating behavior problems that could very easily turn into resource guarding.

And, you can't expect to rely on her off-leash in a city environment for a long time

Maybe I couldn't explain myself properly because of my poor English. I don't train Latte with force. Yes, I picked her up 3 or 4 times when redirection didn't work but I stopped doing that. I only grabbed the dangerous bones from her because I couldn't make her drop them and I was scared. And DH sometimes gives commands loudly with an angry voice. That was what I meant with yelling and yes "physical sanctions" means collar grabbing. He will learn not to do so soon. I'm also working on training him

Edit: I always carry a treat bag with various treats in it. I'm always wearing a "Latte Kit"

Sipsi...
I have a big question: Why do you think you can walk a dog off-lead anywhere?

I'm not so into walking her off-lead. I just wanted to have such trust in her. For example, when we are on a walk, we come across with a dog friend. The owner lets their dog off-lead. They start to play and I have hard times holding Latte's leash. When they get knotted, I have to let the leash go. I always supervise her and if she attempts to run I hold the leash. But what if I couldn't? If there is a ballpark around, I tell the owner to bring their dog there and they play in there, no issues. So I don't want to let her free all the time.

I know Turkey is not the best country for dogs. We have stray dogs, we have garbage on the streets but I also know that there are safe places for dogs. Especially in Izmir. You know Istanbul is worse in that matter.

One of my favourite is ballparks. I used them a lot. Before letting dogs free inside I check the ground. Up to know I found nothing, they are clean. It is best to use them early in the morning because nobody will be there. You can train your dog there or you may just play with her.

Hi capra! I'm so glad and lucky to meet you. Yes, there are safe places for dogs in İzmir. And my neighborhood is one of them. I use ballparks, as well. Everyday. However there's no fenced grass area. I'm afraid of her hurting her paws and joints when running. But I use ballparks anyway to let her off-lead.

I don't believe that you can trust a labrador especially on food, I do not, never.

Well I guess this is something I have to accept.

You have to see the bone before her and change your direction or be ready to say "No!"

I am a bone seeker! But I fail sometimes.

When they were younger they were also trying to handle the case That was making the situation worse. Then somehow we made an aggreement and their duty was to stay silent and wait.

I need to make that agreement in the future.

I like stray dogs, I knew them, I have kibble for them also, they're coming in front of the house when they don't find anything else. I'm their B plan
But I hate that we have stray dogs. Not good firstly for the stray dogs themselves and anybody else. We still couldn't solve this stray dog peoblem.

Yes I hate that, as well. It looks we'll never be able to solve this problem.

You could also take these bones and smear chicken fat, peanut butter or some other tasty things that might be similar to what you find on your walks.

That's a cool idea!

Hi, Oya ~ (don't know if you still use "lara", so...)

Thank you for taking the time to respond with so many great pictures (I now have my Cilek/Tilya fix and sipsi has some wonderful recommendations).

SunDance is right. Thank you capra for these helpful recommendations.

I just wrote a book I guess

Capra, thanks for this excellent book And I have more questions coming. Now we'll go for a walk with Latte