Aggression?

[PinkDragon14]

I hate to even start this post, but I really don't know where else to turn/what else to do.

Here's a little background:

Murphy has a ton of puppy energy and we do exercise him when possible (if there isn't a ton of snow on the ground, it's way too cold, etc.). Of course, even after a long walk, he's still bouncing off the walls, so we play kong in the house or outside. That knocks him right out for the rest of the night. Anyway, when he was a puppy, he used to bite really hard and try to "run off with your arm" (if that makes sense. he takes your arm and tries to drag you off of the couch?). He only does this to ME, no one else. Not my dad, not my friends, no one but me. I'm pretty sure this is because I'm viewed as his "littermate", since I'm below "alpha". When he was a little puppy, we passed this off as puppy behavior, puppy energy, biting stage, etc.

Now at almost 9 months old, this has started again on a daily basis. Never when my dad is home, only when I'm home alone with him. I won't trigger him by doing anything. Take this morning as an example. Dad ran to the store, so I stayed home. I was watching tv and scrolling through facebook when he came up to me and tried to pull my blanket away. I immediately corrected him (he knows this is bad and shouldn't do it) and he walked away to find something else to do. He came back 5mins later and tried again. Corrected him, he went and sat down behind the couch. He comes back and he grabs my arm with his mouth (biting down hard) and tries to pull me off of the couch. I've learned to ignore him and hopefully he'll go away - nope. I tried to correct him - nope. He would let go and bite down again. It was almost like he was cornering me on the couch? I tried to get up to walk away from the situation, but he started barking at me and doing that "play jump" stance. I went back to the couch so he'd go away and he wouldn't go away. Long story short, it was 20mins of me sobbing and him biting my arm.

When I try to go after him (not playfully or running, very calmly walking), he assumes I'm playing and hides under the coffee table (he also knows that he's in trouble). But after I walk away, he comes right back and starts again. I can understand how he sees this as play (and that's one reason why I try to ignore him and not go after him), but obviously I don't see this as play - I see it as some sort of aggression. Even my dad has noticed it too. When he comes in the door, Murph runs up to him and starts kissing him, but then bites his ear and runs away (this is as he's untying his shoe). That scenario to me is more, "Hey, welcome home, let's play!".

I know that many of you (or pretty much all of you) will recommend some sort of trainer. I'm aware of that and I have one that I plan to reach out to tomorrow. In the meantime (and until we can get there), I need help. My dad keeps saying I should give him up and send him off to the shelter. I argue and argue every time that it's fine and I've got it, but that argument is getting harder to win. I really don't want to give him up - he's a great dog except for this ongoing issue. He's had a biting problem since we brought him home and nothing has really worked except a vibrating collar. I'm going to start using that as well, but I'd rather take more of a long-term approach and avoid "band-aiding" the problem.

We do try doing some training as well during the day (reinforcing commands, etc.), but that doesn't help either. It's not that he doesn't learn from the sessions, it's just that doesn't help this behavior whatsoever.

Again, I know that this is probably play and not aggression, but I'm not 100% positive.

[Doreen Davis]

It's probably not aggression but you've got a male entering the teenage phase. When did he leave his litter mates and mom?

Probably starting training from scratch (are you familiar with NILF) and getting some guidance from a trainer?

There are others on the board with better training guidance but those are my first thoughts, he also needs to be occupied, at 9 months they don't just hang, they need to be mentally and physically tired out.

The board is quiet on Sunday and it's Super Bowl Sunday so you may need to wait a bit.

[Tanya]

i agree with finding a trainer.

but some random thoughts: how much daily exercise (physical and mental) is he getting? what kind? at that age he likely needs at least an hour off leash. Also note that i find MANY dogs get crazies after a walk - for those dogs I like to let them run in a safe place and stand back.

I wouldn't do any physical play with him at this time - I never could play physical with Rocky when he was younger (even into adulthood) as he was wayyy too much, he had no middle ground, he either wasn't playing or he was launching on me and grabbing em with his teeth. Luckily he never really engaged in that play unless I'm encouraging him so it was easy to stop.

I wouldn't "ignore him" nor would i "just correct him". redirect him to an appropriate activity. Give him an appropriate toy. If he doesn't stop I'd crate him with a treat. It's a fine line, I am not saying use the crate as punishment, but happily send him there with a yummy treat as a reward and let him chill. Or safe chew toy. Or stuffed kong.

[Snowshoe]

I'm going to guess your biggest problem is he is at the dreaded 9 months old. I swear, that's the one age more people have come on here with troubles at. However, maturity won't overcome these problems without intervention. He needs a teenage exorcism, sort of.

we do exercise him when possible (if there isn't a ton of snow on the ground, it's way too cold, etc.).

You cannot skip exercise just because of snow and cold (or rain and heat. Well maybe heat.) and especially you can't at his age. Once he's past, oh maybe three years old, he might be able to miss a day, provided that all other days he's getting enough. When he does get exercise what do you do and for how long? At that age mine was getting 45 minutes to an hour off leash twice a day and he was in training classes with daily homework. Mind work helps. In the episode you describe above I might have tried a training session to give his evil (kidding) little mind something to do. As Tanya says, that would be an appropriate activity. Are you taking him to classes?

I tried to correct him - nope.

what does this mean? Later you say you did correct him. What is the correction, why could not do it the first time you mention it.?


Yes, I think it's good you bring a behaviourist or a least a trainer in to observe. It's really hard to take a step back and look at what you are doing, someone else can do it better. Good luck, I doubt this is aggression but you do need to learn how to work with him and what actions you should take. Your Dad should be there too.

Oh, and yup, crazy zoomies just After a walk is the norm at this house. I encourage them, outside and no biting me and I stand in a safe corner of the deck so I won't get knocked down.

[SunDance]

You describe yourself as "below alpha", so I've got to ask. Do you consider yourself to be passive? Do you use a passive voice? If so (and you may need to ask someone else how they view you), he might just not respect you or your efforts to rein him in. My husband is annoyingly passive and the dogs basically only obey him if there's something in it for them. And then not that much.

And Tanya...funny how misplaced fingers can make something benign like "finding" into something that looks vaguely dirty. Sorry...."fomdomg" made me giggle.

[JenC]

Our first lab Hudler, bit me until he was a year old. It's not ideal nor desirable, but its usually a form of play with my dogs. When the Griff gets overly excited, it's all about biting my hands.

[barry581]

Is it possible to keep a collar (preferably a prong collar) and 6 foot leash on him in the house? With the leash you can immediately control and correct him without having to physically touching him. When he puts his teeth on you, a very stern "NO BITE" and a strong leash pop should get the message to him his behavior is not acceptable.

I agree with the other about his age being a factor. A Lab puppy going through their teenage phase can be very trying both physically and mentally. You almost have to go back to square one with some of them. You just have to show them you're not going to put up with their crap. I highly encourage using NILF. Make him earn everything, including his meals. With time and patience this phase will pass.

[PinkDragon14]

It's probably not aggression but you've got a male entering the teenage phase. When did he leave his litter mates and mom?

Probably starting training from scratch (are you familiar with NILF) and getting some guidance from a trainer?

There are others on the board with better training guidance but those are my first thoughts, he also needs to be occupied, at 9 months they don't just hang, they need to be mentally and physically tired out.

The board is quiet on Sunday and it's Super Bowl Sunday so you may need to wait a bit.

He left at the end of 7 weeks (the "49th" day), but was really sick and didn't learn bite inhibition because of that. When we were visiting, it didn't seem like he really interacted with his siblings either. He just slept in my lap or away from everyone. Obviously, we didn't think anything of it until we got home and he was sick.

He's got bones and toys as well (nyla/some toy that hides treats/kongs/retriever roll), but no matter what, he always wants "attention" too. I did read up on NILF this morning before I posted this and I'm trying to start it as I type this. The part about the treats he's pretty good with now. He knows he doesn't get a treat until he sits/does a command. But the rest about petting and giving attention, that's what I need to work on.

I didn't doubt that hormones are part of the problem. The vet suggested neutering (a few months ago when we were in), but I wanted to wait until he was at least a year so he'd be developed even more.

i agree with fomdomg a trainer.

but some random thoughts: how much daily exercise (physical and mental) is he getting? what kind? at that age he likely needs at least an hour off leash. Also note that i find MANY dogs get crazies after a walk - for those dogs I like to let them run in a safe place and stand back.

I wouldn't do any physical play with him at this time - I never could play physical with Rocky when he was younger (even into adulthood) as he was wayyy too much, he had no middle ground, he either wasn't playing or he was launching on me and grabbing em with his teeth. Luckily he never really engaged in that play unless I'm encouraging him so it was easy to stop.

I wouldn't "ignore him" nor would i "just correct him". redirect him to an appropriate activity. Give him an appropriate toy. If he doesn't stop I'd crate him with a treat. It's a fine line, I am not saying use the crate as punishment, but happily send him there with a yummy treat as a reward and let him chill. Or safe chew toy. Or stuffed kong.

I'd say walking is probably about 30-45mins (weather pending) and then add in running around the yard for 10mins or so. Mental is a little less, but I do put some treats in the "feeder" and make him work for others such as lunch meat/veggies/etc.

He definitely gets the zoomies after a walk, but he still brings me his kong and demands I throw it to him. After 10mins of that, he'll crash and sleep for a good hour or so. I found that I can't get on the floor and play with him either. He gets way too rough and it's hard to end the game. Sitting on the couch is totally fine when playing with him though.

I use the crate all the time for letting him settle down, whether it be because he's over excited or whatever. I don't leave him in long - just enough to catch his breath and refocus. He's usually fine afterward and comes out and behaves.

I'm going to try redirecting him to his bone and see if that works next time. I'm hoping there isn't a next time, but I know there will be with him

I'm going to guess your biggest problem is he is at the dreaded 9 months old. I swear, that's the one age more people have come on here with troubles at. However, maturity won't overcome these problems without intervention. He needs a teenage exorcism, sort of.

You cannot skip exercise just because of snow and cold (or rain and heat. Well maybe heat.) and especially you can't at his age. Once he's past, oh maybe three years old, he might be able to miss a day, provided that all other days he's getting enough. When he does get exercise what do you do and for how long? At that age mine was getting 45 minutes to an hour off leash twice a day and he was in training classes with daily homework. Mind work helps. In the episode you describe above I might have tried a training session to give his evil (kidding) little mind something to do. As Tanya says, that would be an appropriate activity. Are you taking him to classes?

what does this mean? Later you say you did correct him. What is the correction, why could not do it the first time you mention it.?


Yes, I think it's good you bring a behaviourist or a least a trainer in to observe. It's really hard to take a step back and look at what you are doing, someone else can do it better. Good luck, I doubt this is aggression but you do need to learn how to work with him and what actions you should take. Your Dad should be there too.

Oh, and yup, crazy zoomies just After a walk is the norm at this house. I encourage them, outside and no biting me and I stand in a safe corner of the deck so I won't get knocked down.

We tried the Petsmart classes but those were a fail. I haven't found a decent trainer yet, but the one I found seems pretty good (and came recommended to me by a friend). This sounds bad, but obviously, money is also a factor. If I could afford a really expensive trainer, I'd be on it in a second. I know that in the training field, you get what you pay for too (usually). I don't want a cheap trainer, but I also don't want a trainer that charges an arm and a leg. It's hard to find an affordable trainer in this area (or one semi-close to us). I also don't want to take him an hour to a class every weekend, but the one I found is about 30mins depending on traffic.

(read above reply for exercise/mental) He's still a coconut head and doesn't listen the first time. He's gotten better about "listening" don't get me wrong - it's just that the first time doesn't always work. Usually the 2nd time works, but I'm trying to get it to be the 1st time through training. The correction I used was "leave it" (both for my arm and the blanket). We've practiced this with food and toys, but when it comes down to using it in the real world, he isn't so strong there yet

You describe yourself as "below alpha", so I've got to ask. Do you consider yourself to be passive? Do you use a passive voice? If so (and you may need to ask someone else how they view you), he might just not respect you or your efforts to rein him in. My husband is annoyingly passive and the dogs basically only obey him if there's something in it for them. And then not that much.

And Tanya...funny how misplaced fingers can make something benign like "finding" into something that looks vaguely dirty. Sorry...."fomdomg" made me giggle.

Definitely. Not only with the dog, but in real life too. From day 1 (and this is my mistake), he's never listened to me like he's listened to my dad. Once he says "sit", his butt hits the ground immediately. Now for me, if I have a treat or food, he'll do it. I've tried the "stronger and assertive" voice, but in his mind, he probably laughs and gives me the paw. I don't know how to change his view of me as "littermate" to "authoritative figure". I need to be trained by a trainer as well

Our first lab Hudler, bit me until he was a year old. It's not ideal nor desirable, but its usually a form of play with my dogs. When the Griff gets overly excited, it's all about biting my hands.

I figured that it was play too (hence the trying to drag me from the couch), but he needs to learn that I'm not going to play with him if he's mean/rude. I'll gladly play with him, just when he's calm enough to engage in a gentle play session.


Also, regarding the whole alpha/littermate/lower than me situation, he tends to hump me a lot too. He doesn't dare hump my dad or anyone else, but he does it to me. Yes, I've pushed him off and given him a firm NO. He walks away, but I wonder if he's trying to get higher and push me down?

[PinkDragon14]

Is it possible to keep a collar (preferably a prong collar) and 6 foot leash on him in the house? With the leash you can immediately control and correct him without having to physically touching him. When he puts his teeth on you, a very stern "NO BITE" and a strong leash pop should get the message to him his behavior is not acceptable.

I agree with the other about his age being a factor. A Lab puppy going through their teenage phase can be very trying both physically and mentally. You almost have to go back to square one with some of them. You just have to show them you're not going to put up with their crap. I highly encourage using NILF. Make him earn everything, including his meals. With time and patience this phase will pass.

I haven't tried the prong collar yet - I just fear actually hurting him with it. But I mean if it'll help correct his problem, I'm all for it at this point.

[arentspowell]

You've gotten a lot of good advice. I don't see aggression from what you describe. I see a teenage lab that's playing and trying to get attention.

More exercise will definitely help. Walks won't tire him out, he needs to run and play. If he likes fetch I would get a chuck-it and throw the ball around for him. My dog could seriously go own for hours with the chuck-it. Do you have any dogs nearby/friends with dogs you could have play dates with?

Alpha and dominance theories are without merit. If the trainer you've found subscribes to these theories I would keep looking. He's not doing these things to dominate you or because he doesn't see you as "alpha." He does need training and consistency, especially as you try to work through this. Don't let him frustrate you to the point of sobbing, if you can't get him under control or into his crate, just walk away from him, take some deep breaths, and come back with a fresh mind/attitude.