Needy and disinterested behavior

[garball]

Greetings to all. My wife and I are the owners of two rescues; she had them a few months before I entered the picture. She gave them no training or boundaries and they quickly took charge of her and the house. This was something I could not live with, so entered the training, a five week away from home camp.

During professional training a little over a year ago, we noticed that our yellow lab (Chief, close to 4 years old now) was very disinterested in the training. He was a rescue that has some prior training and is very intelligent; we just don't know what that training was. He will grab your wrist and pull you to shore if you jump in the water. The chocolate (Duke 3 1/2 years old) took to training like a lab to water. Chief would be un-kenneled and care more about walking around and sniffing the grounds. When made to sit on the designated spot, he would look at us (and not to anthropomorphize a dog) longingly like he was being punished.

For the most part, both dogs seem content most of the time and appreciate structure and exercise. However, Chief has periods where he is just not happy with anything and becomes very needy. He doesn't care about his rawhides; he begs for attention; he'll suddenly stop being interested in fetching sessions; he becomes less obedient (almost as testing us); he just retreats to his bed in the laundry room.

I know he is trying to say something, I just don't know what that something is. We are either best of buds or he looks at me like he is sad.

[Tanya]

hmmm. it's hard to say without seeing but maybe he's shutting down? the cause seems unkown (can be sound, pressure (physical/mental), etc.). Is there anything common to all the times he stops?

In your shoes, I would try to note the situation when he does this, see if there is any possible trigger (or multiple triggers). Could even be "he is often just bored after 4 fetches". Or maybe just work on what "motivates" him. some dogs are easy, others are trickier to find what they valu. try different treats, different toys, different activities.

Oh and all this assuming he's been to the vet recently for a full look-over. Labs can be very stoic and hide their pain.

My second dog, penny, especially at first was verrry soft. if i was not in a zen frame of mind during our training she shut down immediately. for her "shut down" was going down to the floor (there were small signs prior though). She is much less "soft" now but I still need to watch myself. I cannot use "physical space pressure" to train (ex: to get a dog to walk backwards you walk "into" them). Luckily she is very motivated by food and/or play otherwise. But I have had to change how i go about training, my mind frame and approach. Still. She is better but she is who she is still Rocky my lab was very non nonchalant and while I am not saying pressure training him was ideal or appropriate, he took it all in stride.

She can be quirky, she skips breakfast many days, and will at times ignore treats (sometimes because it's new and she doesn't like it, other times I know she has eaten them). Loud noises from the neighbor can set her off (like this morning). If she comes to me I'll pet her (redirecting rarely works - but for her going outside DOES most of the time).

[Anna Scott]

Are you doing formal obedience training? My first dog hated it. I once had a very nice judge with a great sense of humour tell me he felt sorry for her during the off leash heeling. She just looked like it was killing her and then he went to hand me the dumb bell for the retrieve and she jumped as high as his shoulder. He was about 6' 4''. She loved the retrieving, the high jump and the broad jump but the heeling patterns bored her to tears. Maybe you need to break your training sessions up with some exciting action.

[smartrock]

Since you sent them away for training, probably at no small expense, I'd hope that the trainers there, who have actually worked with him in person, could give you a better feel for what's going on with the boy or suggestions for ongoing interactions. Perhaps the training he had early on was just not ideal for his personality, or the training you all sent him to, who knows? I don't know how much time he had to settle in with your girlfriend before his situation changed again, also, so maybe the changes over a short-ish time frame were harder for him to adjust to. Maybe he gets anxious and copes by withdrawing from whatever activity you're trying to engage him in or seeking a different type of attention.

While labs are generally adaptable, they all have different personalities. One of mine will do water retrieves at the beach all day long, the other one used to go out a couple of times, look at whatever was thrown out, and swim back without it. No amount of coaxing would get him to bring the toy back or even swim out more than a couple of times. We joked that he didn't realize that he's a retriever. This boy is pretty low energy, even when he was younger, and happy to spend time by himself in another room. My other one likes to be right at my feet pretty much always, waits outside the bathroom door, is just a little busy body. I'm no behaviorist and haven't enough experience with training to even make suggestions, except to say Chief and Duke must have different personalities and will probably never respond to things alike or even like dogs you may have had in the past. You may need to learn to appreciate Chief for what he is, not get frustrated by what he's not.

[Labradorks]

Greetings to all. My wife and I are the owners of two rescues; she had them a few months before I entered the picture. She gave them no training or boundaries and they quickly took charge of her and the house. This was something I could not live with, so entered the training, a five week away from home camp.

During professional training a little over a year ago, we noticed that our yellow lab (Chief, close to 4 years old now) was very disinterested in the training. He was a rescue that has some prior training and is very intelligent; we just don't know what that training was. He will grab your wrist and pull you to shore if you jump in the water. The chocolate (Duke 3 1/2 years old) took to training like a lab to water. Chief would be un-kenneled and care more about walking around and sniffing the grounds. When made to sit on the designated spot, he would look at us (and not to anthropomorphize a dog) longingly like he was being punished.

For the most part, both dogs seem content most of the time and appreciate structure and exercise. However, Chief has periods where he is just not happy with anything and becomes very needy. He doesn't care about his rawhides; he begs for attention; he'll suddenly stop being interested in fetching sessions; he becomes less obedient (almost as testing us); he just retreats to his bed in the laundry room.

I know he is trying to say something, I just don't know what that something is. We are either best of buds or he looks at me like he is sad.

Much to my dismay, my Labs grab people and pull them in, also, with no special training to do so. Labs like to retrieve things out of water, even people.

Sniffing during training can be a sign of stress, like an avoidance behavior. Just Google "dog sniffing sign of stress" and if you want, you can spend at least a week reading about it.

If he went to away dog training, it's likely they used a lot of pressure to train the dogs, which may not have been the right fit for this dog and he is shutting down. Trainers often feel pressure to train a dog to a certain way within a certain time period. Some dogs are pressure sensitive. They are typically handler sensitive as well, and if you are a high pressure handler, which, I can't say for sure but reading your post it sounds like you might be (I am, and I have a handler sensitive dog), if you don't make adjustments in your handling and training style, this is what you'll get.

A handler sensitive dog does not "test". They either don't know what you want or they are stressing out because they are over threshold or freaking out because they are afraid of being wrong and have just lost their brains. So, if you punish him for being less obedient, it'll either make him worse (frantic), or he'll stop doing what he is doing and do nothing, but he'll be shut down and give you that "I'm being punished" look. Many pet owners and pet trainers see a shut down dog as obedient.

Try not to compare him to the other dog. Labs (and all dogs, really) come in a range of temperaments from the hardest dog the softest dog, and must be trained with their unique temperaments in mind. The neediness is a dog that is afraid of making his own choices because it might be wrong. They remind me of that old cartoon where the little dog is (annoyingly) trying to get the bigger dog's approval. A soft dog likes structure, as in routine, and exercise is always good. Consistency is important, meaning that each command is given a specific way every time. If you give the dog a command and he does not comply, first look at how you gave the command. If it was any different than usual, don't blame the dog. Micromanagement turns them off, shuts them down. If the dog was given free reign at one point, sent to a tough trainer, an now has a high-pressure handler (you), this sudden change in the rules could make any sensitive dog somewhat neurotic. If your significant other did not have boundaries before, the sensitivity may not have been recognized.

Training sessions should be short and fun with treats and games. If the dog opts out of something like retrieving, let it go. In fact, if he decides not to retrieve, give him a hug and a pat and tell him it's OK, don't push him. You might find that after doing this awhile, he opts to stay in the game longer as it becomes more fun and less stress. If you pick at him, it'll make things worse. If you don't have competition goals with the dog, I would not worry about precision or the minute details. Don't drill him. Train in a low-pressure way. I taught my dog utility signals easily and without stress while cooking in the kitchen and practicing casually while cutting veggies (and using them as rewards). Training doesn't need to be formal and sensitive dogs learn better with less stress if you teach it informally then gradually become more formal/structured once the dog knows the exercise and has a history of fun/rewards/happy times while doing that exercise. Anything the dog learns in a negative manner (to the dog) will be associated with that negativity unless you re-teach it in a low-pressure, positive way.

[garball]

Much to my dismay, my Labs grab people and pull them in, also, with no special training to do so. Labs like to retrieve things out of water, even people.

Sniffing during training can be a sign of stress, like an avoidance behavior. Just Google "dog sniffing sign of stress" and if you want, you can spend at least a week reading about it.

If he went to away dog training, it's likely they used a lot of pressure to train the dogs, which may not have been the right fit for this dog and he is shutting down. Trainers often feel pressure to train a dog to a certain way within a certain time period. Some dogs are pressure sensitive. They are typically handler sensitive as well, and if you are a high pressure handler, which, I can't say for sure but reading your post it sounds like you might be (I am, and I have a handler sensitive dog), if you don't make adjustments in your handling and training style, this is what you'll get.

A handler sensitive dog does not "test". They either don't know what you want or they are stressing out because they are over threshold or freaking out because they are afraid of being wrong and have just lost their brains. So, if you punish him for being less obedient, it'll either make him worse (frantic), or he'll stop doing what he is doing and do nothing, but he'll be shut down and give you that "I'm being punished" look. Many pet owners and pet trainers see a shut down dog as obedient.

Try not to compare him to the other dog. Labs (and all dogs, really) come in a range of temperaments from the hardest dog the softest dog, and must be trained with their unique temperaments in mind. The neediness is a dog that is afraid of making his own choices because it might be wrong. They remind me of that old cartoon where the little dog is (annoyingly) trying to get the bigger dog's approval. A soft dog likes structure, as in routine, and exercise is always good. Consistency is important, meaning that each command is given a specific way every time. If you give the dog a command and he does not comply, first look at how you gave the command. If it was any different than usual, don't blame the dog. Micromanagement turns them off, shuts them down. If the dog was given free reign at one point, sent to a tough trainer, an now has a high-pressure handler (you), this sudden change in the rules could make any sensitive dog somewhat neurotic. If your significant other did not have boundaries before, the sensitivity may not have been recognized.

Training sessions should be short and fun with treats and games. If the dog opts out of something like retrieving, let it go. In fact, if he decides not to retrieve, give him a hug and a pat and tell him it's OK, don't push him. You might find that after doing this awhile, he opts to stay in the game longer as it becomes more fun and less stress. If you pick at him, it'll make things worse. If you don't have competition goals with the dog, I would not worry about precision or the minute details. Don't drill him. Train in a low-pressure way. I taught my dog utility signals easily and without stress while cooking in the kitchen and practicing casually while cutting veggies (and using them as rewards). Training doesn't need to be formal and sensitive dogs learn better with less stress if you teach it informally then gradually become more formal/structured once the dog knows the exercise and has a history of fun/rewards/happy times while doing that exercise. Anything the dog learns in a negative manner (to the dog) will be associated with that negativity unless you re-teach it in a low-pressure, positive way.

Thank you very much for your in depth response. Can you please explain what you mean by "pressure" as in being a high pressure handler and what exactly defines a handler sensitive dog?

[Labradorks]

Thank you very much for your in depth response. Can you please explain what you mean by "pressure" as in being a high pressure handler and what exactly defines a handler sensitive dog?

A handler sensitive dog is a dog that is upset or stressed when they think you are unhappy with them or they think they are in trouble or if they don't how to please you. This is typically genetic to some extent, but could be aggravated by the handler or the training methods or a little bit of both. Either way, the dog struggles to know what is right and is afraid of making a mistake because he cares about your happiness or displeasure toward him. Handler sensitivity can range from the dog caring that you are happy to the dog depending on your happiness to feel even remotely content. It's not bad, unless it's extreme. It's just something to consider and adapt to when training and working with your dog, just like any personality or temperament trait of a dog.

I was always curious and confused about pressure because when people talked about it, they talked about it as not a person pressuring someone, but pressure from the environment. It took me awhile to get it! Pressure is stress. It's conflict. It's distraction. It can be things you are unfamiliar with (noises, strangers, strange places). It can also be someone breathing down your neck or picking at you to get something done, to do something better, etc. It's high expectations. Some people love pressure and thrive in it. Some people can't handle it and give up or boil over. Many people fall somewhere in between. Some people are born more or less sensitive to pressure and some of it is created by our parents, teachers, environment. For some people, they learn how to deal with pressure (build a callous) over time and with confidence and maturity. And, some people never learn to deal with it very well. Just like our dogs!

So, if you are a high-pressure handler, you might have high expectations that stress a sensitive dog out, high-pressure body language that you're not even aware of or you might give unclear signals to a dog that needs you to clearly communicate what you want. Or, you might be doing all three!

The dog could also be reacting to a conditioned emotional response (CER) due to the training he received by the trainer you sent him off to. If you teach a dog to sit using negative methods (for example, always with a jerk), whenever the dog is asked to sit, he will associate "sit" with "jerk" unless it is retaught using different methods. For example, when I do my dogs' nails, I sit on the floor a certain way. If I randomly sit on the floor this way with a plate of juicy steak in my hand with no tools to be seen, my sensitive dog will respond in the exact same way he would if I had the Dremel in my hand because every time I have sat like that in the past, it has meant that I am going to Dremel their nails and he hates it. However, my other dog doesn't react this way because he does not hate the Dremel. He associates the Dremel with cookies. Each dog is different. I should have taught it differently and slower with my other dog. Dogs have positive CERs also. The kibble against a metal bowl. The sounds of a leash. When you put on your "dog walking jacket". The clicker. It might be worth a chat with the trainer just to get a better idea of what you might be dealing with and how to proceed. I'm assuming you discussed training methods with the trainer and have some sort of take-home instructions at the very least?

I have a sensitive by nature dog and train for competition sports. Though he was always "obedient" I'd been having some issues with him being stressy so almost two years ago, I changed trainers, changed methods and retaught everything. Since then, I've been doing a lot of studying about handler sensitivity and our dogs, what it means, what I need to do. It's been really interesting and enlightening!

[garball]

Again, thank you for another very informative reply. It seems like you have been able to peg both Chief and I with very little information. Your first paragraph sounds like Chief to a tee.

The few times we visited the dogs at training, the trainer demonstrated long rope leads, off lead with a long stick he would tap them on the rear with (not hard), and a little collar conditioning. Pretty much they were taught sit, here/heel, no and ok. I know it was a different environment going from having their beds in the bedroom to being kenneled with a lot of other dogs around them. Duke, who we always thought of as "special," was the teacher's pet. Chief, not so much.

Since then, we have moved houses and I have moved their beds out of the bedroom and have been trying to get them to enjoy being outside more than having to constantly be within two inches of "mom." Both seem happier with having more structure and daily training sessions. It's just every now and then Chief breaks down.

[Labradorks]

Again, thank you for another very informative reply. It seems like you have been able to peg both Chief and I with very little information. Your first paragraph sounds like Chief to a tee.

The few times we visited the dogs at training, the trainer demonstrated long rope leads, off lead with a long stick he would tap them on the rear with (not hard), and a little collar conditioning. Pretty much they were taught sit, here/heel, no and ok. I know it was a different environment going from having their beds in the bedroom to being kenneled with a lot of other dogs around them. Duke, who we always thought of as "special," was the teacher's pet. Chief, not so much.

Since then, we have moved houses and I have moved their beds out of the bedroom and have been trying to get them to enjoy being outside more than having to constantly be within two inches of "mom." Both seem happier with having more structure and daily training sessions. It's just every now and then Chief breaks down.

You can't really take my word for it as I have not seen the dog and I am not a pro. So, always a good idea to get in front of someone with your dogs to get a better idea of what is happening. The issues you bring up though sound fairly typical. You are obviously concerned to some degree, otherwise you would not have brought it up. There is a need to adapt. If this type of behavior goes on for too long, the dog can develop some serious anxiety.

The methods your trainer used, I can't say would work well for every dog. Plus, that is a lot in five weeks. Too much. If I sent my yellow Lab to a place like that, at the very least I know I'd have a lot of "un-doing" to do, probably some dog therapy would be in order. This is a perfect example of a cookie-cutter approach to training and getting them in and out -- quantity over quality.

Structure is not power or bootcamp. Structure is regular training, consistency, exercise, a somewhat predicable schedule. Labradors are people dogs and they are happiest when with their people. A Labrador does not thrive as an outdoor dog. They see it as being closed away from their family, like locking a child in a room. Labradors are also often "Velcro dogs" and being within two inches of mom at all times is completely normal and actually one of the most endearing traits of the breed.

You can still have structure and allow the dogs to be in the home with you and to sleep in the bedroom. If you don't want them on the bed, that's fine. They are pets, not soldiers. They don't need to toughen up. They are lovely, sensitive animals that deserve our empathy.

[garball]

Update:
Chief seems to be more engaged if he has to work for or earn his treats. For instance, if I make him sit and go hide a rawhide for him to find, or just make him retrieve one, he will sit down and eat it. Just give him a treat and he looks at you like you have insulted him.