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  1. #21
    Senior Dog Meeps83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparky View Post
    Good news!
    Our trainer suggested the prong collar when Mocha was 4 months old. DW had red marks on her hands from the pulling. After 15 minutes we saw a HUGE improvement. Latte will have her own pink prong (if we can find one)
    I saw them at, I believe, pet smart. I bet chewy or Amazon have them too

  2. #22
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annette47 View Post
    Just because the dog hit the end of the leash doesn’t mean that not doing that isn’t being rewarded and reinforced. Hitting the end of the leash functions as a correction which is information to the dog as to what behaviors are not desirable. The key (which some people may leave out) is to couple that with praise/rewards for correct behavior and that’s how they learn. Sass STILL hits the end of the leash (and yes, on a prong) occasionally when she sees a rabbit, squirrel or imaginary small animal. She knows how to walk correctly, and even how to heel but sometimes her impulses get the best of her.

    One approach would be to say that she is just not ready to go anywhere where there might be small animals as a distraction, but since this happens just walking in our neighborhood, I’m not going to leave her home 24/7 - the benefits of taking her out are too great. Eventually she will remember that the sensation that occurs when she fails to “leave it” is unpleasant and can be avoided with a little self-restraint. Until that time, she wears a prong so that she doesn’t injure me.
    I would be willing to bet that most dogs on a prong are not rewarded and reinforced for correct behavior as most people rely on the negative reinforcement of the prong and basically ignore the good behavior. I'm sure that when you are out and about, you use "leave it" if you can catch her before she bolts and when the dog makes the correct decision, she is rewarded, right?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    I would be willing to bet that most dogs on a prong are not rewarded and reinforced for correct behavior as most people rely on the negative reinforcement of the prong and basically ignore the good behavior. I'm sure that when you are out and about, you use "leave it" if you can catch her before she bolts and when the dog makes the correct decision, she is rewarded, right?
    Yes, absolutely. I’m not sure I would say “most” people don’t do it this way. Many don’t, but many do and there’s no way to know which is which unless you really watch them in action.
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  4. #24
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annette47 View Post
    Yes, absolutely. I’m not sure I would say “most” people don’t do it this way. Many don’t, but many do and there’s no way to know which is which unless you really watch them in action.
    By them, I guess you mean the general population? If so, I can say without a doubt that for every positive reinforcement, there are many negatives. I have cycled through dozens of pet dog classes and low level competition classes over the past 20 years with various trainers.

    I can't say for sure about people on this board, but I find it interesting that letting a dog "self-correct" is mentioned 99.9% of the time and reinforcing for correct behavior has been mentioned very little.

  5. #25
    Senior Dog TuMicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annette47 View Post
    Until that time, she wears a prong so that she doesn’t injure me.
    I think this is a factor that is often overlooked when we talk about training methods. Two knee replacements, a necrotic patella, being a klutz my whole life, and now being 68 and an ever worse klutz, arthritis in both hands... this will inform how and why I train my dogs. Even if I was NOT doing field work for fun, I would have to think about things and what I'm going to do once they are faster and stronger than me (which is pretty soon after they leave the litter.)

  6. #26
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    I would be willing to bet that most dogs on a prong are not rewarded and reinforced for correct behavior as most people rely on the negative reinforcement of the prong and basically ignore the good behavior. I'm sure that when you are out and about, you use "leave it" if you can catch her before she bolts and when the dog makes the correct decision, she is rewarded, right?

    Okay, so what is it, Labradorks? Are we talking general public or are we talking competition folks? As for NO competition level trainers allowing prongs, sorry but that is incorrect. I know of several very successful, respected trainers who not only allow, but encourage them. I remember this as early as 1999 when I sold a big strong male pup to a gal w/ juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. Her competition trainer (highly regarded) fitted him w/ one at 4 mos or less. He became her service (brace) dog in addition to obed dog.

    I do as Annette describes and you bet your bippy I use a lot of rewards during training (whether on a prong, a flat, a choke or yes, even the e-collar!). How do we get our dogs to show grounds etc if we are relying on such collars to control our dogs? Hmmm, well I guess that 4-5 mo stage has worked pretty well for me since Kanzi and Ruby both earned their Rally Novice titles at v young ages (6 and 8 mos old) w/ several high 90's scores.

    Hate to say it but yes, Kanzi did lunge at a dog and receive instant correction early on w/ the prong. I dont' think she ever did that again. I'd say it's a pretty good teaching tool, personally. I like to use it in the field too because I do have high prey drive dogs that need to understand that breaking is a bad thing... I wish I had done it much earlier w/ Kanzi's mom who is still a breaking fool despite the CDX etc.

    All dogs are different. We all need to train the one in front of us and stop worrying about everyone else's methods.
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  8. #27
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuMicks View Post
    I think this is a factor that is often overlooked when we talk about training methods. Two knee replacements, a necrotic patella, being a klutz my whole life, and now being 68 and an ever worse klutz, arthritis in both hands... this will inform how and why I train my dogs. Even if I was NOT doing field work for fun, I would have to think about things and what I'm going to do once they are faster and stronger than me (which is pretty soon after they leave the litter.)
    Like I've said here and many times before, do what you need to do to keep yourself and your dog safe. I have suggested prongs for people whose dogs were out of control. I'd rather the dog be on a prong than hit by a car or a person becoming injured.

  9. #28
    Senior Dog Abulafia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    Of course it wasn't obvious! Look at the original post and several that follow. They specifically say that the dog hit the end of the leash. I'm not trying to pick on Barry, but geez, maybe read the posts before assuming that I'm a dolt and didn't read anything or getting defensive. I could be wrong since I don't remember every single prong conversation, but Annette's post was the first one that I recall ever saying (on this board) they reinforced for correct position/behavior.
    I read all the posts, which was why I was confused. I just assumed that it proper training would be a part of this, and it didn't occur to me to specify. Not at all defensive; just a bit surprised. That's all.
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  10. #29
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    It makes me kinda sad that this turned into a whole debate about prong collars and who's training methods are the best. The point I was attempting to make was that by being proactive, you can avoid bad behaviors before they get to a point that they are really, truly a problem. You know, like training leave and drop it from day one, before you have an issue where puppy ingests something that requires surgery to remove it.

    As to the whole prong collar debate, I couldn't care less if you choose to use one on not. I choose to use one, the training class we go to, the instructor recommends using a prong collar while training. Everyone in class but one person uses a prong, the person not using one uses a metal choke chain. Several people I train with who have taken multiple dogs to multiple high level field, obedience, and rally titles use prong collars. All of these people all use positive/reward based training methods. Like any tool, a prong collar can be misused, but when used correctly I feel they are a great way to make humane corrections that are needed in the training process.

    Finally, I'll say this. Just because someone does something different than you, or has a different opinion about something, doesn't automatically make them wrong. It just makes them different. The are normally multiple ways to achieve any given objective, and whatever works for you, do it. As long as the dogs aren't abused I don't care how you do it.

  11. #30
    Senior Dog windycanyon's Avatar
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    100% agree. What was that old saying, there are many ways to skin a cat? (OMG, how politically incorrect that one is now!!! ) hehehehe....
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