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  1. #31
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barry581 View Post
    It makes me kinda sad that this turned into a whole debate about prong collars and who's training methods are the best. The point I was attempting to make was that by being proactive, you can avoid bad behaviors before they get to a point that they are really, truly a problem. You know, like training leave and drop it from day one, before you have an issue where puppy ingests something that requires surgery to remove it.

    As to the whole prong collar debate, I couldn't care less if you choose to use one on not. I choose to use one, the training class we go to, the instructor recommends using a prong collar while training. Everyone in class but one person uses a prong, the person not using one uses a metal choke chain. Several people I train with who have taken multiple dogs to multiple high level field, obedience, and rally titles use prong collars. All of these people all use positive/reward based training methods. Like any tool, a prong collar can be misused, but when used correctly I feel they are a great way to make humane corrections that are needed in the training process.

    Finally, I'll say this. Just because someone does something different than you, or has a different opinion about something, doesn't automatically make them wrong. It just makes them different. The are normally multiple ways to achieve any given objective, and whatever works for you, do it. As long as the dogs aren't abused I don't care how you do it.
    If you're talking about me, I was asking honest questions. I have said multiple times, do what you have to do. And, I have suggested prongs to people in certain situations. However, if I had to rely on a prong, I would not have been accepted into the best trainer's classes or lessons, I could not have gone to many matches, I could not have taken my puppy to AKC events to hang out, etc. I was curious about how others might handle that. I think it might be a regional thing with the prongs in training. You just never really see that around here, with very few exceptions.

    I have also not ever heard of anyone rewarding their dog while using a prong. I was curious about that, too, and think it's worth mentioning, especially on a pet dog forum. From a pet dog point of view, I see lots of instructions on how to fit a prong and how the dog "learns his lesson" when he hits the end, but I've yet to see someone give good advice on rewarding the dog for doing what you want him to do. Or what types of temperaments of dogs do better with a prong and which ones might have issues (shutting down, redirecting aggression, losing trust in the owner, etc.). Perhaps someone should write something on that? Being that so many people use them or plan to use them, I think it would be a great idea.

    Of course there are dogs being trained with prongs, e-collars and what not who do really well in competition. The ways in which people train their dogs and win competitions, past and present, is astounding! Stringing dogs up, throwing chains at their dogs' heads during the DOR, slamming them into walls, all things that people have and still do use and can get great performances out of their dogs. There is a very real issue of abuse in field work, which is not big secret. Point being, just because people's dogs do well or even really well using certain tools (or, in come cases, "tools") that doesn't mean that the methods are justified and that it's OK. Like you said, there are other ways to reach an objective and why use a method that is harsh when there are other methods which are not that are proven to work just as well? Even Leerburg (huge proponent of prongs and e-collars and pretty much hates +R trainers) will tell you that a use of a prong or e-collar or corrections to one dog may be abuse to the next.

    My overall issue isn't experienced trainers using the right corrections, timed appropriately on the right dogs. There just aren't that many people who hold that skill or have that experience, and I hate seeing people use "tools" that might not be the best fit for their dog or for them when those tools can be harmful when used inappropriately, even on accident and without malice. There are other tools that work and in some cases work better for certain dogs and/or handlers. I don't think that making people aware of that fact is bad, especially when prongs seem to be most people last resort and not many people want to use one.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    If you're talking about me, I was asking honest questions. I have said multiple times, do what you have to do. And, I have suggested prongs to people in certain situations. However, if I had to rely on a prong, I would not have been accepted into the best trainer's classes or lessons, I could not have gone to many matches, I could not have taken my puppy to AKC events to hang out, etc. I was curious about how others might handle that. I think it might be a regional thing with the prongs in training. You just never really see that around here, with very few exceptions.

    I have also not ever heard of anyone rewarding their dog while using a prong. I was curious about that, too, and think it's worth mentioning, especially on a pet dog forum. From a pet dog point of view, I see lots of instructions on how to fit a prong and how the dog "learns his lesson" when he hits the end, but I've yet to see someone give good advice on rewarding the dog for doing what you want him to do. Or what types of temperaments of dogs do better with a prong and which ones might have issues (shutting down, redirecting aggression, losing trust in the owner, etc.). Perhaps someone should write something on that? Being that so many people use them or plan to use them, I think it would be a great idea.

    Of course there are dogs being trained with prongs, e-collars and what not who do really well in competition. The ways in which people train their dogs and win competitions, past and present, is astounding! Stringing dogs up, throwing chains at their dogs' heads during the DOR, slamming them into walls, all things that people have and still do use and can get great performances out of their dogs. There is a very real issue of abuse in field work, which is not big secret. Point being, just because people's dogs do well or even really well using certain tools (or, in come cases, "tools") that doesn't mean that the methods are justified and that it's OK. Like you said, there are other ways to reach an objective and why use a method that is harsh when there are other methods which are not that are proven to work just as well? Even Leerburg (huge proponent of prongs and e-collars and pretty much hates +R trainers) will tell you that a use of a prong or e-collar or corrections to one dog may be abuse to the next.

    My overall issue isn't experienced trainers using the right corrections, timed appropriately on the right dogs. There just aren't that many people who hold that skill or have that experience, and I hate seeing people use "tools" that might not be the best fit for their dog or for them when those tools can be harmful when used inappropriately, even on accident and without malice. There are other tools that work and in some cases work better for certain dogs and/or handlers. I don't think that making people aware of that fact is bad, especially when prongs seem to be most people last resort and not many people want to use one.
    No, this was not directed to you, nor is it about you. It's a simple statement. Evidently you just don't get it. You've taken what I iniitially intended, that is being proactive, and made your soapbox to disparage those who chose to use training methods that different that yours. Just because you have little to no experience in using this type of training device, doesn't mean there aren't a great number of people who use them to great effect. I applaud you in the fact that you have chosen to train your dogs with the methods that you feel work best for you. It doesn't make you wrong, it just makes you different. In my original post, in no way did I suggest that everyone should run out and buy a prong collar, and using it was the only way to train a dog. Far from it. I was making a point about being proactive about training, to not wait until you have problems before you try to correct them. Ask yourself why most new people come here. In many cases they come here to find a way to correct some type of behavioral problem. Many of these problems we all experience while raising our dogs. If my suggestion of being proactive helps someone, great!

    I've found one of the things that has greatly benefited me in my life is being open minded to those with opinions different than mine. Different isn't wrong, it's just different.

  3. #33
    Senior Dog doubledip1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    If the dog wasn't trained do what you have to do to stay safe and keep your dog safe. Prongs can be a good management tool. I don't personally have anything against them, when used properly, but, I think it's kinda backwards to say that next puppy, instead of training them, you'll just put a prong on them right away.

    For those of you that show or plan to show in any AKC events, how will you do that? If you plan to take your puppies and dogs to shows for acclimation (not to trial) matches (depending on your area/club they may not allow prongs) how will you do that? Also, I don't know of any good trainers, pet or obedience, who would allow a prong in puppy-k or in basic obedience or competition obedience. Even among the local traditional trainers, it would not fly, and there are some pretty harsh trainers around here! How will that be managed? I'm actually really curious!
    Luna's therapy dog certification does not allow anything but a flat buckle collar. I agree, the only thing used in obedience should be a flat buckle.

    That said, Luna can be a terrible puller any time she's not in 'therapy mode'.
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  4. #34
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barry581 View Post
    No, this was not directed to you, nor is it about you. It's a simple statement. Evidently you just don't get it. You've taken what I iniitially intended, that is being proactive, and made your soapbox to disparage those who chose to use training methods that different that yours. Just because you have little to no experience in using this type of training device, doesn't mean there aren't a great number of people who use them to great effect. I applaud you in the fact that you have chosen to train your dogs with the methods that you feel work best for you. It doesn't make you wrong, it just makes you different. In my original post, in no way did I suggest that everyone should run out and buy a prong collar, and using it was the only way to train a dog. Far from it. I was making a point about being proactive about training, to not wait until you have problems before you try to correct them. Ask yourself why most new people come here. In many cases they come here to find a way to correct some type of behavioral problem. Many of these problems we all experience while raising our dogs. If my suggestion of being proactive helps someone, great!

    I've found one of the things that has greatly benefited me in my life is being open minded to those with opinions different than mine. Different isn't wrong, it's just different.
    How am I being disparaging? Again, I have nothing against a prong, used correctly. If I adopted a large untrained dog, I'd probably use one. I haven't needed to use one on any of my dogs, which is why I haven't.

    My comments had nothing to do with the use of a prong on your pup nor did I suggest that you told everyone to buy a prong. If you go back to my original post, in response to you, I said nothing about you and agreed that LLW training is important. However, people started commenting about using prongs before their puppies were even born or purchased. Prongs are not for all puppies and they are not for all people. And, I do know why a lot of people come here which is why I think they should have all of the information instead of just the part where prongs are like power steering and make all of your loose leash walking problems go away or successful competition trainers use them so they must be the key to an obedient dog. There is a lot of information missing in these statements.

    Different isn't wrong...until it is. My type of training is wrong for some people, too because it's not easy and people think it is and end up doing it wrong. Watching someone use punishment wrong drives me just as crazy as watching someone use a clicker wrong! There are ways to do things (right) and when someone has a potentially damaging tool, they need to know how to use it and they need to know the facts. I don't think people are wrong or abusers, but I do think it's irresponsible to put some of these training tools in the hands of inexperienced dog owners. It's not my business what a person does with their dog, but I do care!

    The competition stuff, I was genuinely curious and I thank Annette for answering my questions without becoming defensive.

  5. #35
    Senior Dog Meeps83's Avatar
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    I think the training device depends on the dog and particular situation as well. Nikko, my Alaskan Malamute, was a very soft dog. He was always only trained on a flat collar. Mia, my other Alaskan Malamute, was a very strong and strong-willed dog. I never used a prong on her as I had a poor opinion of them and was not knowledgeable on their use. I spent a lot of time trying to get her to walk well on a leash. I used that gentle leader which was horrible for her. I also tried just stopping if she pulled on leash and we never went anywhere. Eventually what worked for her was a flat collar and when she stopped paying attention I quickly walked a different direction. Since this forced her to pay attention to me she got so much better. With Maverick, we have different collars for different modes. He has an easy walk harness for working. I like the control, although not necessarily the restriction on his movements. We use the harness when we go to class. I do use a prong collar for him in conjunction with a flat collar on walks. I fully admit to doing a poor job with leash training. I try not to use the prong because it is just a tool. I keep it on so that on a walk if he's not responding to me or if he forgets how to walk nice we can do a few corrections with praise and rewards for the correct behaviors. Every dog is different and their training needs are different. I don't know if I'll use a prong or a harness on our new pup. It will depend on his personality and training needs. I'd prefer to use a flat collar, but that may not happen and I'm ok with it.

    What we all need to do, in addition to accepting that other training methods, is that accepting that each dog has different needs. I love that Labradorks uses a flat collar and has such finely behaved dogs. I love that Barry and so many others have had great success in training their dog to be happy and well behaved using a prong collar. I respect those that have used e-collars with success to help their dogs respond correctly and in a timely manner. Lastly, for those of us that have had to use a harness for a little control, it's ok. As long as it helped, it is OK. All of these are tools. Ultimately, we all want our dogs to respond immediately and the way we want, regardless of what they're wearing.

    Admittedly, I don't understand every tool and when or how to use them. That is ok as well, as long as I don't attempt to use them UNLESS I understand them. For whatever tool any of us use, we all want well behaved dogs and we are all trying to do what is right for us and our dogs. As long as we are responsible, kind, and knowledgeable, any of these tools (and any that I didn't mention) can all achieve the same result.

    Barry, I did get your ah-hah gist in the first post. It was a good reminder, especially to those of us that will soon be welcoming a new puppy into our families.

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  7. #36
    Best Friend Retriever Java's Avatar
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    I'm glad you have the chance to be proactive. A little wistful about it too. Boomer came with a host of behaviours I've been slowly trying to chip away at. Between what I've learned with my previous two dogs and a recent course with a local trainer, I've made some headway but boy, I wish I could go back in time and prevent whatever gave him the habits of demand barking and runaway-chase me.

    Working on it but it would be oh, so lovely to start from the beginning. Oh well, I can follow all the puppy exploits here.

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  9. #37
    Senior Dog Shelley's Avatar
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    Barry, I also got your Ah-ha! Moment. It's not always how you train, or what you use, but that you are training. A field trainer I know says "Train don't complain".
    Last edited by Shelley; 08-26-2016 at 12:41 AM. Reason: spelling

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  11. #38
    Senior Dog IRISHWISTLER's Avatar
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    Barry,
    Was that "Ah-ha" or "Ha-ha"? LMIAO.

    Cheers Mate,
    Irishwhistler
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  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRISHWISTLER View Post
    Barry,
    Was that "Ah-ha" or "Ha-ha"? LMIAO.

    Cheers Mate,
    Irishwhistler

    Wise guy!

  14. #40
    Senior Dog IRISHWISTLER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barry581 View Post
    Wise guy!
    Mustering me best Robert De Niro voice - "Are you talking about me"? LMIAO. In the words of OZZIE OSBOURNE - Paranoia BIG Destroyer, the drama continues over the top. Going to play some whistle to settle me nerves. LOL.

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