Off leash training (Shock collar, socializing, and hiding from her)

[freeasabird]

Hey! I am back again with some more Labrador questions. This forum has always been super nice and patient with me and I hope you guys can help me again!

My 16 week old puppy, DeeDee was always timid. She always had her tail between her legs when meeting another dog(even one much smaller than her) and refuses to have people pet her, so socializing was a bit harder. I met a guy with a lab/collie mix who listened to his commands and were super nice. He would tell his dogs to go scout the area, and then quickly call them back to him in seconds. I asked for pointers and he gave me a few that helped him:

1. Hide from the dog randomly when shes not paying attention. She will look towards you more often after that
2. Build up her confidence through play fighting and swiping at her legs.
3. Socialize her with more dogs as soon as possible.

I managed to do all of them and she was gaining more confidence. She is still scared of other dogs, but she started paying more attention to me after I hid behind a bush or a tree. She would sit down and search the surroundings until she saw me, and she started looking back at me a bit more.

The only problem is that now shes slowly stops following me and becomes a hazard. She ran into the street one time during a walk, she ignored my calls and kept walking home another time, and she started venturing out across the street virtually every time.

The only reason I let her off leash is because I live in a very rich neighborhood with lots of doctors and surgeons, there are practically no cars on the street for me to worry about. Up until about 9 weeks I didn't even have to use a leash for walks, she would just naturally follow me around with no problems. But all of that is changing when she gets bigger and more confident!

She can walk on a leash just fine, she listens to the tugs and still stays around with me. I have taught her sit, shake paw, and am currently struggling with lay down. I try to impose rules and build boundaries for her, but I dont think I am getting off the message that I am her master completely.



Now, for the real question: Has anybody tried/worked with/used a shock collar? My co-workers German Shepherd got therapy dog training using shock collars to stimulate him and he has gone completely leash less.

Any other suggestions that will help me?

Or is this just a growing out of puppy hood that I must deal with?


Again, THANK YOU for all of your comments/suggestions. You guys truly help me become a better dog trainer!

[BaconsMom]

I will comment on the e-collar (electronic collar). They are a wonderful tool in the hands of someone experienced, and can be something terrible in the hands of someone who doesn't know what they are doing. Bacon is E Collar conditioned. We did not start any E Collar training until he was 6 months old. We then, along with experienced hunting trainers, slowly exposed him to the collar. If you are going to work with the e collar PLEASE consult and work with an experienced trainer. Some dogs are very sensitive to the e collar, and some don't respond well. Bacon has never felt a stimulation past level 5 (level 1-level 21) because he is more sensitive to the stimulation. I also know many hunting labs that are on the max setting and they can ignore it.

After 6 months of e collar training, we have 100% confidence in his recall and his steadiness (not leaving the hunting blind until commanded) even without the collar on. However, he knows its work time (hunting time) when the collar goes on.

The only thing I will say is please consult an experienced trainer concerning e collar training. If you go too harsh to quickly your pup can be scared of the collar, and I have also seen pups be scared of their owners.

Hopefully IRISHWHISTLER can chime in, he is a seasoned hunting dog trainer and has years of knowledge.

[Labradorks]

Walking a dog, a puppy off-leash on a sidewalk is not only illegal in most places, but also irresponsible and dangerous. I don't care if it's a rich neighborhood, a poor neighborhood, a neighborhood with large sidewalks or without any sidewalks at all. You are setting your puppy up for failure and to get killed by a car. PUT YOUR PUPPY ON A LEASH.

Your puppy is afraid. When dogs are afraid, you do not punish them for it. So, when she is running home because she is scared and you do not have her leashed, do you really think that shocking her is the solution? Perhaps these things worked for this guys dog, but do the dogs have remotely similar temperaments? Blanket statements like swiping at the puppy's legs for confidence building is bizarre. Does your puppy like having her legs swiped at? If she does, great. If she doesn't, don't do it!

Hiding can work, but again, not on a sidewalk in a neighborhood close to cars when your puppy is off leash. If the puppy panics, she is likely to run home, and there you are, behind a tree where you cannot see her or get to her in a reasonable enough time to keep her safe. And, is this the best method for your fearful puppy? Does she perk up and come looking for you like it's a game? Or does she want to run to a safe place? If it is the latter, it's not working for your puppy so you should stop doing it.

Never force a fearful puppy or dog to socialize with people or other dogs. If you can put her with people who are indifferent and dogs that are indifferent and allow her to acclimate and look for play or pet, that is fine. Dogs and puppies that are fearful and forced to do things may freak out and bite and now you have a fear-biter or they become runners, like your puppy is doing.

These are not training issues and you should not be punishing your puppy or using a shock collar. Even if it was a training issue, first, she should be on a leash and second, is it even legal to put a shock collar on a four month old puppy? She is a baby and this is her temperament. This is not a master/slave situation or a dominance issue (which isn't even a thing, anyway). Again, your puppy is scared, not bad. You really should consider consulting a professional.

[Annette47]

It sounds like you haven’t actually trained her to a recall first, which needs to be done before you even think about reinforcing it with an e-collar.

Start in the yard, on a leash if not fenced, although I have found it’s better if you can start them without the leash. Call her, and as soon as she comes to you reward her with either food, play, or both. HUGE party. Then immediately release her to play again. Once she understands what “come” means, then progress to more distracting locations, with a leash on so that you can guide her to you if necessary. Again, reward and release for more fun. One of the biggest problems people have with teaching a recall is that the recall usually ends the fun for the dog, so why should they come? If 95% of the time it means reward and ongoing fun, then the 5% of emergency situations that you need to immediately restrain them after a recall won’t have as much of an effect. And the quantity/quality of reward is huge with this. You want to make being with you once you’ve called her the MOST exciting, best place in the world - so much better than out sniffing things or chasing bunnies, etc.

The key though is to teach what you want first, before trying to enforce it. Once you are confident that she knows what come means, you can think about introducing corrections (for my dogs, I go get them, grab them by the collar and frog march them back to where I called them from saying “I said COME, I said COME, I said COME”. As soon as we get to the spot though, it’s GOOD COME - you want that spot to be the only good spot to be in). I wouldn’t do that as a way of teaching come though, as it could have the effect of making the dog confused and afraid. I only do that once they have demonstrated that they know the command and have deliberately chosen to ignore it.

[Tanya]

PLEASE find a reputable, knowledgeable trainer to go to for advice. asking a random person for tips and following them blindly can lead to issues (as you saw). Socialization isn't meeting as many dogs as possible and forcing her to interact with people. it is finding APPROPRIATE friendly dogs for her to gain confidence with and slowly make the presence of humans positive (tossing treats and ignoring her) so she goes up tot hem on her own. And if she is timid rough housing can do as much harm as good depending how you go about it (grabbing her legs? how does this help anything)? the experience must be pleasant and positive FOR THE DOG.

The hiding advice is good but you ONLY do this is safe environments and you clearly are not doing this. I don't care how rich a neighborhood is or if there is only a car or two that go by it's still very public with no boundaries and you are getting MUCH too far from your dog. And as mentioned, it doesn't sound like you have actually taught her what you want from her. Start with a leash and safe places. Leaving a dog offleash like that is irresponsible. Being rich doesn't make them super alert drivers (and even there, dogs are dogs and can dart and suddenly go in a random direction). She could also go up to someone who is afraid of dogs, eat something that makes her sick, go up to a dog that will hurt her. There are MANY things that can and do go wrong.

First step is training a formal recall. use a new word, one not used in regular conversation with your dog and use yummy treats (high valu not kibble) and a long line. Start AT HOME with no distractions. The long line is to very gently tug her if she doesn't come. Use a high pitch voice and be more interesting than the environment (thus starting inside). do NOT use this word unless you are 100% certain she will come - so use her name or other word in any other context until training is complete. SLowly add distractions or distance (one at a time).

The e-collar would ONLY come into play once she knows what the word means as a reminder. But I would be VERY VERY cautious of using one on a young dog that is generally fearful.

oh and a note about a dog "understanding the command" - they do not generalize. just because the dog fully responds at home with no distractions does NOT mean it will understand in all situations in all places. you start training at home with low distractions and with time you keep training with distractions and in new places. when you change the difficultly (either adding a distractions or distance) then you need to ensure you have the long line at first and practice til the dog is responding at 99% before removing the long line. And start without a long line in FENCED PLACES until you know the dog is safe to be offleash elswhere.

[Sue-Ram]

The only problem is that now shes slowly stops following me and becomes a hazard. She ran into the street one time during a walk, she ignored my calls and kept walking home another time, and she started venturing out across the street virtually every time.

The only reason I let her off leash is because I live in a very rich neighborhood with lots of doctors and surgeons, there are practically no cars on the street for me to worry about. Up until about 9 weeks I didn't even have to use a leash for walks, she would just naturally follow me around with no problems. But all of that is changing when she gets bigger and more confident!

Even if I lived in a neighbourhood with lots of veterinarians and board certified veterinary surgeons I would never walk my dog off-leash on a sidewalk. That is such a scary thought.

I would also be really concerned if the doctors and surgeons in your neighbourhood have teens with their drivers license.

[Abulafia]

I don't understand any of this.

I don't know how DeeDee was socialized early on (she seems both dog and people averse?), but either way she is a timid dog; and while that can be addressed with good training (and perhaps more socialization), she cannot be forced or bullied out of it.

Please don't take the advice of Random Guy With a Dog. While the hiding might work as you are working on recall, the other advice—play-fighting, swiping at her legs, having her meet (random) other dogs—is ill-founded at best. Swiping at legs or play fighting as a "way to build confidence?" What? I have a friend who likes to play-fight w/ Hoku, and I really hate it. Hoku will seem to tolerate it find for him, but I don't want her to view humans as potential bitey-face partners, and it doesn't seem in her nature (so I let him do it for a second, and stop it as soon as she gets up and walks off). But even if you are fine w/ play-fighting, forcing this on a dog with physical harassment (leg-swiping) is just weird. And a really bad idea, especially for a soft dog.

Since it doesn't seem you are in hunting training, I'm honestly not sure why you are considering an e-collar.

I'd suggest a leash. And a lot more training. The presence of doctors and surgeons and great wealth hardly makes people better drivers; also, walking a dog off leash on public roads is illegal. Please leash your dog. And get more training. Not from strangers.

[fan of fanboys]

"I live in a very rich neighborhood with lots of doctors and surgeons"


lol at including that. humbebrag much? since you have so much money but not enough common sense or awareness not to let your untrained dog wander off-lead you should spend some of your vast amount of money on an actual trainer

[Snowshoe]

Used to be, here in Ontario, that Doctors had DR on their car license plates so when they were speeding to an emergency call they would not be stopped. Don't have those special plates anymore, I think, but the Doctors still speed. If it's me or one of my loved ones waiting for a Doctor in an emergency I hope they don't have to slow down to avoid someone's dog.

Your puppy is still very young. Everything you describe sounds pretty normal. She's gaining the confidence to leave you and she needs some recall and other training. Obedience classes would be great for the two of you. Good luck.

[windycanyon]

16 wks is hardly a reliable age for a lab, and in fact, is one of the worst ages (8 -14 mos is the worst, imo). Please get to classes. These puppies don't come trained out of the box. One slip up, your pup will suffer for it.

And please don't consider an ecollar. The fact you and your friends are referring to it as a "shock" collar tells me volumes about the experience level.