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  1. #21
    Senior Dog Abulafia's Avatar
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    Am I the only one alarmed that a breeder told a new Lab owner to pin down a puppy? And I doubt that what is being seen is actually "confrontational" behavior, but it if is, it's not normal. I really wonder how long the dog was kept with the mother and litter mates.

    Anyway, I guess I'd repeat—again—everything you've already read (with the repetition that whoever told you to pin a dog is out of their minds).

    And really, really, you need to get into classes. Hoku came home to us on July 30 at 7.5 weeks, and she was in her first class (hold on; I'm checking her "socialization journal") on August 8, so just short of 9 weeks. She was then in classes pretty much non stop until she hit 9 months, when there was a break. She will start classes (agility and Therapy Dog training) again this summer.

    The early classes are not for her—they are for you. I realize that you have a lot of experience training another type of dog, but I want to gently suggest that, based on your descriptions, you need classes to learn how to deal with this puppy, right now. You mention eye contact—eye contact is not something dogs do with each other naturally unless they are going to fight. Dogs learn "look at me" and "focus" with their owners, but this is a trained skill. Staring longingly into each other's eyes is a human thing, not a dog one.

    A dog will learn to look at you to focus and communicate (because you're so weird and don't communicate properly with your body and nose), but you and she need to learn how to do this together. And you will. But you need to slow down a bit and learn how.

    I also think you are expecting her to exhibit self control she cannot exhibit at present. You need to mind her all the time right now. Sorry. It is what it is. Hoku came to us (as above) at the beginning of August. I was teaching at the time (I am a uni prof. —so I'm perfectionistic and an obsessive learner), but I spent every moment not at campus with Hoku. Usually outside with her, because she just wanted to be outside all the time (this did make training a lot easier—she never got "used to" soiling the house). She was restricted to the kitchen during her first many weeks. Many, many weeks. And so I just stayed in the kitchen with her. I worked there. Answered email there. Whatever. She was too young not to be attended. I don't think she got free reign of the house until she was maybe four or five months old. Suddenly it was obvious that she didn't need to be in the kitchen, so we opened the gate and there it was. She had never grown used to chewing furniture (our house is ... it has a lot of wood in it, let's say), we never had to chase her off or yell at her. She just learned what she can chew, and what she can't.

    But I had to learn all of this. I grew up with, and trained dogs—Labs, Lab mixes, and an Irish Setter. And I went back and learned everything over again. And again. And again. I had never crated our dogs growing up (hm... and that's how I lost all those shoes). Confining her to the kitchen seemed ridiculous (why? We don't let toddlers toddler about without attendance). Early aggressive socialization—what's that? (Well, she's the chillaxinest dog ever, completely non-reactive, unless you try to look in her ear, which she takes as a capital insult).

    Hoku's temperament is a result of her breeding. But we still did everything we could to learn how to learn with her in order to reduce frustration on all accounts.

    Labs are great! But even with Hoku, a very easy Lab, I want to make it clear that we put in our time, and a lot of it. You have to. You owe it to the dog, and to yourself.
    Hidden Content Hokule'a ("Hoku") / b. 06.08.15

  2. #22
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abulafia View Post
    Am I the only one alarmed that a breeder told a new Lab owner to pin down a puppy? And I doubt that what is being seen is actually "confrontational" behavior, but it if is, it's not normal. I really wonder how long the dog was kept with the mother and litter mates.
    No, you're not the only one. Well, alarmed isn't the word I'd use. Disgusted? Yes. Surprised? No.

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  4. #23
    Senior Dog Maxx&Emma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labradorks View Post
    No, you're not the only one. Well, alarmed isn't the word I'd use. Disgusted? Yes. Surprised? No.
    I agree, I also think it is just sad.
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  5. #24
    Puppy Deacondog's Avatar
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    Gosh what beautiful dogs- and that gorgeous Black Lab! Yes, lots of good ideas and I like the idea of the outside enclosure. I am using one INSIDE currently in the kitchen just for someplace to put her so I can get a few things done while she's confined in the kitchen. It's unfortunate my home is rather small so storage space is limited. She ran up on me the other night and my prescription pills flew up in the air and went EVERYWHERE! She is fast as can be so I grabbed her but couldn't be sure she didn't ingest one so there went $60 for a call to Poison Control- of course worth it- and turns out she didn't grab one but it could've been lethal. Again, never owned a pup like this that I didn't "see" coming... she's stealth and sneaky and EVERYWHERE. We were lucky. I just signed her up for classes- PetSMart to start and then if that isn't good enough i'll find a specialized trainer nearby.
    This particular class- the owner has Goldens and she seems VERY GOOD. She met Sasha today and seems to understand where we're "at". She agrees with you guys that the crate's too big and that's why she cont's to have accidents inside! (again today in fact!) it's very discouraging... We ran into a 1yr old GSD while there and of course they reminded me how quickly they trained "their" dog and I was bummed. Everyone thinks she's sweet and adorable- and she IS- she's very beautiful and loves to play- but she has a devious side too that is very "trying"- and when you're not sleeping- it wears on you. She's worn out- which is GREAT. But she recharges in like an hour and is right back at it. I however, got no nap and am living on caffeine. I keep hearing how maturity is going to take YEARS and it's hard for me to fathom. I'm heading over to my brother's later and see if he can alter the kennel to make it smaller inside as it can't be anything she can chew- as she'll eat right through it... They sold me some gross chicken gelatinous filled bone today that is supposed to help with her chewing and occupy her- but after reading the ingredients- it contains a lot of high fructose corn syrup/sugar and just seems like must have a lot of preservatives to "last" that long. So, I am going to remove the inside "stuffing" and learned the hard way paying for a lousy femur bone... (unless you guys think these are OK? esp for puppies) and what about hoofs? She won't eat the antler she has so I doubt she'll like it- but I'm desperate. I got the bully sticks and at first she loved them- now she's losing interest after about 15". BUT- still not bad. She's doing well on her walks. She loves meeting new dogs- we're being careful. She is undaunted. I was laughing about the French Bulldogs- I would never have imagined that!! (doesn't Martha Stewart own one?) Ugh. I just hope she'll be a snuggle bug at some point. At least she DOES like to keep me in sight most of the time- which I guess is a good sign. I don't NEED or WANT a totally needy dog- but I don't only want a dog who likes me cuz my pockets are full of cookies- LOL. She is getting more vocal by the day too- eek. Class can't begin soon enough- though I am doing a lot at home w/her already, I think her being accountable in class will be a good thing (and will keep ME in check as well) I will definitely TRY the method of getting her to chase me- but she's pretty smart and the hand clapping only worked the 1st week she lived here. Someone @the petstore today called her a Diva! I think they hit the nail on the head. She thinks she owns Everything here! *More to come... and hopefully pics soon!

  6. #25
    Puppy Deacondog's Avatar
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    OH- Hoku's adorable and a sturdy Lab! Yes, I agree. I have stopped any "pinning" and am completely going with all positive reinforcement now and expecting less from her at this age. I am not sure why the Breeder feels this is necessary- she explained I needed to establish the Alpha placement I guess- (trust me- I had my concerns about the mother as well- not sure they were weaned as ideally as they could've been either- which is such a shame as Mama teaches them so much) Now, with Sheps- the pinning IS often necessary and they will be very physical with you and confrontational to establish their dominance- so you kind of have to do this at times. In this case, I think she was just like an out of control little kid after sugar but & starting to swear at the parent kind of thing. (though I do need to watch that growling thing) SHe hasn't done it lately at all... I will grab the scruff of her neck at times to halt her behaviors (no i don't shake her! I redirect her body) and that is working. I've had 2 Vets tell me to use eye contact early with pups over the yrs- so I think there must be some significance to that. Yet, she isn't quite there yet- she IS beginning to look at me more. And I make her earn everything she gets. At least with a "sit". She doesn't like to be alone- so I moved the crate to the living room- that's how she got to be around my couch. Otherwise- I had no plan to have her anywhere but beyond the kitchen... She just isn't anything like my other dogs- except one mixed rescue I had who also insisted on being near me- and would bust out of the crate literally- and wanted to be Next to me- but again- another very strong willed dog! (part terrier for sure). So- doing what I can working with her traits and relaxing on my expectations but have to keep her under my thumb or she will rule this house in no time. Thank you for your help/input.

  7. #26
    Senior Dog ZoeysMommy's Avatar
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    I was raised with german shepherds my whole life, my mom was into breeding, showing etc. So im definitely not inexperienced when it comes to dogs but when I got Zoey at 8 weeks old I was definately not prepared and I was shocked by how much naughtiness could fit into such an adorable little puppy. I found these boards many years ago and with the help of everyone here, I successfully raised a well behaved, well trained labrador. German Shepherds and labs are very different dogs, I adore both breeds but I would much rather own labs, contrary to what you may be feeling now, i can assure you that labs are much easier to raise. They live to please and with some patience and one hell of a sense of humor you will find that labs are very easy keepers vs a GSD that can be a challenge especially if you arent someone who knows how to handle a more dominate, headstrong breed. Labs are more forgiving when it comes to training errors than a GSD could ever be. A inexperienced dog owner can very easily raise a lab but an inexperienced owner should never have a GSD

    I am now on my second lab puppy, I have a 8 month old yellow female along with Zoey who is now 7. Nothing she does even suprises me, I was ready and I was prepared. I am hooked on labs now, I would love to own another GSD someday but I will always have a lab

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  9. #27
    Senior Dog Labradorks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deacondog View Post
    OH- Hoku's adorable and a sturdy Lab! Yes, I agree. I have stopped any "pinning" and am completely going with all positive reinforcement now and expecting less from her at this age. I am not sure why the Breeder feels this is necessary- she explained I needed to establish the Alpha placement I guess- (trust me- I had my concerns about the mother as well- not sure they were weaned as ideally as they could've been either- which is such a shame as Mama teaches them so much) Now, with Sheps- the pinning IS often necessary and they will be very physical with you and confrontational to establish their dominance- so you kind of have to do this at times. In this case, I think she was just like an out of control little kid after sugar but & starting to swear at the parent kind of thing. (though I do need to watch that growling thing) SHe hasn't done it lately at all... I will grab the scruff of her neck at times to halt her behaviors (no i don't shake her! I redirect her body) and that is working. I've had 2 Vets tell me to use eye contact early with pups over the yrs- so I think there must be some significance to that. Yet, she isn't quite there yet- she IS beginning to look at me more. And I make her earn everything she gets. At least with a "sit". She doesn't like to be alone- so I moved the crate to the living room- that's how she got to be around my couch. Otherwise- I had no plan to have her anywhere but beyond the kitchen... She just isn't anything like my other dogs- except one mixed rescue I had who also insisted on being near me- and would bust out of the crate literally- and wanted to be Next to me- but again- another very strong willed dog! (part terrier for sure). So- doing what I can working with her traits and relaxing on my expectations but have to keep her under my thumb or she will rule this house in no time. Thank you for your help/input.
    This is all very out of date "Monks of New Skeet" information. I know many people with GSD performance dogs and they are often incredibly insecure which sometimes leads to dog aggression or fear aggression. Any pinning or alpha roll type stuff makes it worse and the dog that are "better" for it are typically just shut down. Even "Monks of New Skeet" published a follow-up book claiming ot be wrong. A lot of people got bit man-handling their dogs this way. The dominance theory is out-dated, old-school dog training. Scruff-shaking is also very old school and teaches the dog to be afraid of you, or sometimes bite, depending on the dog. I think that you might want to read some newer materials on training and dog behavior. Your "strong-willed" puppy that broke out of the crate to be near you was not strong-willed, she had separation anxiety.

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  11. #28
    Senior Dog Maxx&Emma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deacondog View Post
    Gosh what beautiful dogs- and that gorgeous Black Lab! Yes, lots of good ideas and I like the idea of the outside enclosure. I am using one INSIDE currently in the kitchen just for someplace to put her so I can get a few things done while she's confined in the kitchen. It's unfortunate my home is rather small so storage space is limited. She ran up on me the other night and my prescription pills flew up in the air and went EVERYWHERE! She is fast as can be so I grabbed her but couldn't be sure she didn't ingest one so there went $60 for a call to Poison Control- of course worth it- and turns out she didn't grab one but it could've been lethal. Again, never owned a pup like this that I didn't "see" coming... she's stealth and sneaky and EVERYWHERE. We were lucky. I just signed her up for classes- PetSMart to start and then if that isn't good enough i'll find a specialized trainer nearby.
    This particular class- the owner has Goldens and she seems VERY GOOD. She met Sasha today and seems to understand where we're "at". She agrees with you guys that the crate's too big and that's why she cont's to have accidents inside! (again today in fact!) it's very discouraging... We ran into a 1yr old GSD while there and of course they reminded me how quickly they trained "their" dog and I was bummed. Everyone thinks she's sweet and adorable- and she IS- she's very beautiful and loves to play- but she has a devious side too that is very "trying"- and when you're not sleeping- it wears on you. She's worn out- which is GREAT. But she recharges in like an hour and is right back at it. I however, got no nap and am living on caffeine. I keep hearing how maturity is going to take YEARS and it's hard for me to fathom. I'm heading over to my brother's later and see if he can alter the kennel to make it smaller inside as it can't be anything she can chew- as she'll eat right through it... They sold me some gross chicken gelatinous filled bone today that is supposed to help with her chewing and occupy her- but after reading the ingredients- it contains a lot of high fructose corn syrup/sugar and just seems like must have a lot of preservatives to "last" that long. So, I am going to remove the inside "stuffing" and learned the hard way paying for a lousy femur bone... (unless you guys think these are OK? esp for puppies) and what about hoofs? She won't eat the antler she has so I doubt she'll like it- but I'm desperate. I got the bully sticks and at first she loved them- now she's losing interest after about 15". BUT- still not bad. She's doing well on her walks. She loves meeting new dogs- we're being careful. She is undaunted. I was laughing about the French Bulldogs- I would never have imagined that!! (doesn't Martha Stewart own one?) Ugh. I just hope she'll be a snuggle bug at some point. At least she DOES like to keep me in sight most of the time- which I guess is a good sign. I don't NEED or WANT a totally needy dog- but I don't only want a dog who likes me cuz my pockets are full of cookies- LOL. She is getting more vocal by the day too- eek. Class can't begin soon enough- though I am doing a lot at home w/her already, I think her being accountable in class will be a good thing (and will keep ME in check as well) I will definitely TRY the method of getting her to chase me- but she's pretty smart and the hand clapping only worked the 1st week she lived here. Someone @the petstore today called her a Diva! I think they hit the nail on the head. She thinks she owns Everything here! *More to come... and hopefully pics soon!
    Labs are very much velcro dogs and "need" to be with their family, almost always. Honestly, If you were not looking for a dog that enjoys being with you I think you have chosen the wrong breed. They really are great dogs, most of them train fairly easily because most Labs live to please their people. They do so well with positive based training and they really enjoy learning. I don't know who your breeder is, it doesn't really matter, but much of what you have disclosed about her breeding practices leads me to believe she should not be breeding, at least Labs. (JMHO)

    Please throw away any cooked, stuffed bone. Cooked bones will easily splinter and the stuff that is inside is junk. At this age I would stick with a kong, stuffed with apple slices, banana slices and a little bit of plain of yogurt or green beans and carrots with a little cottage cheese, FROZEN! They will last a good amount of time. I also used large, braided bully sticks because they lasted forever. Once she gets a little older a fresh, raw bone can be tried. (Be careful of the marrow, it is very rich and can cause tummy upset at first.)

    Not every Lab takes YEARS to mature, some do, some don't. They do, however, need physical and mental exercise. Many will wear you out during the first year or 2, especially when you are not wearing them out!

    I hope your class is helpful and you begin to feel more comfortable with your puppy. I also hope you can soon stop comparing this puppy to any other breed and just begin to enjoy your journey. They grow so fast and this time will be gone in the blink of an eye. (I know it doesn't feel like that right now!) I promise you will some day wish you had that baby back in your arms.
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  13. #29
    Senior Dog Abulafia's Avatar
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    Labs are very much velcro dogs and "need" to be with their family, almost always. Honestly, If you were not looking for a dog that enjoys being with you I think you have chosen the wrong breed. They really are great dogs, most of them train fairly easily because most Labs live to please their people.


    Absolutely. Hoku needs to be with us, and she is very rarely left alone. She goes to work w/ my husband, she is with us otherwise all day. This makes her happy—it's what Labs need to be happy (not to never be left alone—we can do that because of our schedules—but to mainly be with their people), because it's how they were bred. She's happy being in the car with us if we run errands; she's happy walking out to a 20 minute visit to a hardware store or a nursery. If we are out and happen to go to lunch, she's happier snoozing in her crate in the back of the car than being left at home. She's our family. That's how Labs are. Not all breeds are like this. It's a Lab thing.

    And no, not all Labs take forever to mature. Hoku's (I think) a rare case, in a lot of ways. She's matured quickly, but she also has huge sensitivities: if I look worried, she gets worried. If I am happy, she's secure. She IS mature... but also, I know, an adolescent, and going through all sorts of adolescent changes.

    All Labs are different, but they do tend to really need to be with people. And I should mention that Hoku is not food-driven (she's 82 lbs, but not food driven!). She is affection-driven.

    And that's the chase thing. It's not about her being too intelligent to chase you. She should, and needs to, want to come to you. That could be life-saving in the future.


    Hidden Content Hokule'a ("Hoku") / b. 06.08.15

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  15. #30
    Senior Dog BaconsMom's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forum! I want to echo what everyone else said. Bacon was a terrible puppy, and I remember many nights crying and asking myself why we got him. He was so mouthy and so full of energy. I can say that nearly 3 years later, he is the best thing that has ever come into my life, and I love him with all my heart. The labra-shark months were totally worth it.
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