Well... that keeps us out of class!

[Labradorks]

Actually, probably the BEST school on the cities (if you are looking at results...scores, not just ugly Qs) absolutely allows those tools if they are appropriate for that dog

It must be a regional thing. My training facility and the better ones in my area couldn't care less about Qs, they want happy dogs and high scores, with happy dogs being first priority. Of course, with high scores comes Qs. If the dog is happy and makes a mistake, it's preferable over a flat dog that does all of the exercises and Qs.

[TuMicks]

I guess, my only question is you object to an obedience or rally club not allowing you to use an ecollar to train?

My first question would be why do you need an e collar to train? Millions of dogs compete in Rally and obedience without ever wearing an ecollar. I totally understand the happy bouncy lab. Trust me I know it very well. That's why we have labs. It's like you so opposed to even trying positive methods and you won't go somewhere that won't let you use an ecollar and that's the issue I have. Why not give it a try. Don't get defensive don't be opposed to it. You may have start at the beginner level, and that's ok you know what the beginner level has? A lot of happy bouncy dogs without e collars so your in similar company.

I'll own up to being defensive. But mostly on the basis of being treated like a puppy torturer. And I don't want to necessarily use the e-collar to do obedience/rally-o. But I want to be allowed to bring my dog to class wearing the receiver (which would be more than likely turned off.) My dogs associate the collar with "Oh BOY! We're going out to work!!!"

The whole point of teaching obedience is starting to teach the dog obedience and not through use of e collars or treats. When you practice or compete in obedience or any other sport but hunting sports, e collars as well as treats are not allowed in trials, so to depend on either in class you shouldn't. Hunt tests are performed naked... that is to say, the dogs are naked. I wear cammo. First thing your going to do in obedience is teach the dog to walk nicely on leash. My guys heel better off lead right now than on. Mainly because they go to the line without the leash and they know if they surge, we go back to the blind. So off lead they are very solid. I know you say you have great control off leash at a distance and you have an ecollar on them. Well how is your control on leash and off leash without the e collar because that's how you will be competing. No, it's good. Our dogs get stimulated very little when training. 99% of our training is done with attrition. And leading up to a HT we are working off lead a great deal. Instead of criticizing a place because they do not want e collars or pinch collar because that's kind of the purpose of dog training isn't it? To learn to walk nicely on leash without the need for prong collar or e collar. You certainly will not be allowed to use them to compete with them so why train with them. If you're asking a bout in obedience class... initially I just want to be able to have the dog wear the receiver. If you're asking about field work, the answer is more complex but it mostly is due to the necessity of delivering a perfectly timed correction with the perfect level of stimulation when the dog is a long distance from us... distances where even the time between when we blow the whistle is blown and when it's heard by the dog involves a critical time lag.I understand it is a tool you know, however if all you know how to use is a hammer and you are given a screw so you hammer it in or learn how to use the screw driver. If that's the only way to communicate to the dog your desire then that's a trainer issue and you need to learn to communicate with your dog in other ways. I am always looking at new ways to communicate. We don't train the dogs with the collar (properly speaking) we use it to insist that the dog do what he/she has already been trained to do.

Now I understand the use of the e collar and I am not opposed to it in certain situations but I don't think it should be relied upon. I understand the FF as I have been reading the other thread too and have seen trainers do it. It's not for me there are other ways to do it I agree with but I am not about to bash them for doing it, it just not for me. Ecollar training was used for Hemi to teach him not to leave the yard. However before the ecollar was used 5 weeks every day of positive training was used. Then came the ecollar. He had been trained positively with no treats only praise and happy fun methods. Then when the time came the collar was only there as a reminder. He got shocked 2 times the very instant he crossed the boundary for the yard he was positively trained on. Sounds about right. That is when he was 7 months old. I also consider that being a possible life and death situation and so the collar was needed to drive the final point home. He is going on 4. He has never left the yard since even to chase a rabbit or cat. He will stop right at the property line. He has also not needed the shock collar again either nor does he wear it just in case. The whole point of training is so you do not need these tools is it not? Exactly so. But each time we are in the field, we are in a new setting and the work differs. A retrieve is not a retrieve is a retrieve. Hemi knows that barrier. It's the same barrier today that it was yesterday. But, if you moved to a new home, you would perhaps need to re-establish the new barrier with the collar again. When Hemi and I go to obedience class, I take maybe a handful of treats, and I come home with most of those still. Agility class I haven't used treats in a couple years. Yet all his training is positive. I am not opposed to negative punishment as well I take that hand in hand with positive training but people need to know how to use it. I used it at lunch time today. Hemi and I were sitting outside enjoying lunch and the neighbor was working in the yard. Hemi kept wanting to run over there being told not to 3 times. He is on leash and restricted for his soft tissue injury. 3rd time, he got put in the house where he sat there staring and pouting at me while I ate my lunch. That's negative punishment, he is not listening, he doesn't get to be outside with me. about 10 minutes later I let him out he sits right down on the deck beside me. He looks over at the neighbor now and then but is content. Now I could have put an ecollar on him and given him a mild shock at the first movement. However I got my point across without it.

Now I agree with you ecollars can be a useful tool. I totally agree in rattlesnake training using a ecollar for example, that's life and death. However to teach a dog to sit, stand, stay, back up? No I don't agree with that. No reason what so ever does sit stand or stay need to be taught that way. One of the reasons is because training and training positively also builds a much better bond between the dog and the handler. Clicker training for example has been proven in scientific study to stimulate the pleasure center of the brain. Amygdala: the Neurophysiology of Clicker Training | Karen Pryor Clicker Training Working positively can also increase the Oxytocin level in handler and dog. Dogs and their owners: A chemical bond | The Why Files One of the things you teach a dog positively is to watch me. The dog learns to look at you and into your eyes. Then done properly this can lead you to a whole new level of training. Apprendimento sociale - Do as I do - YouTube This is not a parlor trick either. I know people personally that do this.

Now this may not be what your going for. If so fine, the big thing I have seen mention is well I don't see any positive trained dogs with all these titles. I don't know if there are or not, nor do I care. Thats kind of like saying well I eat red meat and my penis is bigger than yours. !!! When Hemi finally crosses the rainbow bridge I will have a ton of great memories. Every day of our life together was positive. As far as I am concerned we experienced life together. I didn't drive him to get letters after his name. We did this by practicing and having fun. He has them, don't get me wrong. He has plenty of letters but I really don't know them without looking them up. I just don't brag about it or see it as important. Remember we did conformation before he was neutered, we do rally, obedience and agility, Tracking in UKC and Nosework in the UKC. I retake the CGC test every year for fun, we pass I throw the paperwork away and we go have a steak dinner in celebration. Hell we even do canine musical freestyle. Trust me I do not do that for me. I got talked into giving it a try and Hemi had so much fun doing it I do it for him, even his trainer said you could just see him light up and he watches me the whole time. For me we set a goal and we tried something and we succeed or not. Our Agility we do CPE now instead of AKC, because again for me its more about the fun of doing things with your dog not about how many letters he has after his name. If you can only train with an ecollar because you want letters well, I don't know what to say. You're off the rails here. Please see my post about the near orgasmic joy THESE dogs have in THIS particular work. You will have to take my word for it, OR go see a bunch of top-end field dogs at a Field Trial. Go to the Open or Amateur All Age stakes. Look particularly at the dog's eyes when they are on the line watching the ducks/pheasant go down. You can't MAKE a dog do this. Talk about the amygdala... it's like a crack cocaine rush for these dogs. BAM! I can't describe it adequately. You would defeat your own line of reasoning here if you could just see these top dogs at work. If you want to train with your dog because you both want to have a good time and face a challenge together then well open your mind and try new things. This is exactly what I'm trying to do. I want to try a new game during the winter months. And am willing to do it using traditional Ob, i.e., non-ecollar tools and methods. I want to bring my dog to class wearing their receiver. That's it. And I think for very good reasons. That's all I can really say and I felt I needed to say something because it looks like your just bashing a place because they don't want you to use an ecollar and so your being a little whiney saying hrumf they won't let me use my ecollar so looks like me and my dog can't go to class. I would have a lot of respect for the ladies of the Dogs and Lace Doilies Obedience Club if they would have discussed my dogs and my goals with me. But, big sigh... hard as it may be, I shall go on after this massive blow to my well-being and self-esteem. Reminds me of my 4 year old nephew on the fourth of July got his tricycle taken away, he sat down on the steps and announced to everyone in his loudest voice "I guess I will just sit here and not do anything."

Now... if I were a member of the Children's Rescue and Lace Doilies Society I would have to report you for child abuse. You cad.

[TuMicks]

Thank you, Jeff. That was a very nice write-up and I could not agree with you more. As much as I train, if I were using traditional training methods, I'd be miserable. My ego is not so large that I feel the need to punish and force my dogs for a title. My dogs come first in this sport/hobby.

I hope you and Jeff can go see the Open or Am at a Field Trial. Most of the dogs you see will leave the line so fast that grass and dirt is thrown up behind them. But even the senior citizen dogs that are still in competition will have that incredible intensity in their gaze. Dogs are God's most honest animals. You don't need to be a dog analyst to know the dog that is in fear. Ears are back, the whites of their eyes show fully around their irises. You KNOW that you know when a dog is in fear. If your suppositions were true, the dogs would cringe when their crate doors are open and we have the e-collar in our hands. If what you thought was going on is indeed so, then they would not try to race us to the line, or be peeking out from other the holding blind. Therefore, please go to these venues and let the dogs tell you whether they are frightened or not. The absolute WORST THING you can do to one of these dogs is to take them off the line and not let them get the retrieve.

I just urge you to not take Anna's and my words for this. You can do the work and see dogs reacting to the ecollar when it is use appropriately by people who know how to use it. (We all know idiots can make a dog cringe... even with body posture and tone of voice. Of course, you can destroy a dog with an e-collar. Just like you can cripple a dog with a link collar. So to say... I have seen dogs cringe when shocked, therefore all shocks make all dogs cringe... that is a fundamental error in logic.)

[TuMicks]

I have seen them. I see people all the time coming in to a training center, dragging their dog around by a prong collar or shocking them constantly to where the dog is wired and on edge or shuts down because as we know there are a great many idiot dog trainers.

See guys... that is the point, isn't it? You have seen those idiots and their dogs. You surely have. What you have NOT SEEN are high octane field dogs (and to reiterate... these are dogs whose gene pools are worth passing down through time and space) being trained appropriately. No... I think I can say with absolute confidence, that you have not. AND I think it would be a great boon to the breed if you would go watch the end results of that type of breeding and training. And it would help me to introduce my dog to obedience work (actually Rally-O) if the Dogs and Lace Doilies gals would allow me to transition into a whole new game and a wholly different means of teaching and learning. BUT... I'm sure Gail and the other gals in her sewing circle know EVERYTHING ABOUT DOGS AND E-COLLARS THAT THEY EVER NEED TO KNOW. The theological term for that sort of thinking is "invincible ignorance."

[Labradorks]

I hope you and Jeff can go see the Open or Am at a Field Trial. Most of the dogs you see will leave the line so fast that grass and dirt is thrown up behind them. But even the senior citizen dogs that are still in competition will have that incredible intensity in their gaze. Dogs are God's most honest animals. You don't need to be a dog analyst to know the dog that is in fear. Ears are back, the whites of their eyes show fully around their irises. You KNOW that you know when a dog is in fear. If your suppositions were true, the dogs would cringe when their crate doors are open and we have the e-collar in our hands. If what you thought was going on is indeed so, then they would not try to race us to the line, or be peeking out from other the holding blind. Therefore, please go to these venues and let the dogs tell you whether they are frightened or not. The absolute WORST THING you can do to one of these dogs is to take them off the line and not let them get the retrieve.

I just urge you to not take Anna's and my words for this. You can do the work and see dogs reacting to the ecollar when it is use appropriately by people who know how to use it. (We all know idiots can make a dog cringe... even with body posture and tone of voice. Of course, you can destroy a dog with an e-collar. Just like you can cripple a dog with a link collar. So to say... I have seen dogs cringe when shocked, therefore all shocks make all dogs cringe... that is a fundamental error in logic.)

The bottom line for me, is that these higher level sports are for the people, not for the dogs. If I get to my dog to a point where it is e-collar or nothing as far as competition in this venue, then I'll just toss some birds for fun and every year spend a grand or so and go on a guided hunt and let my dog do what nature intended. Once we get to the point where the dog requires remote management and force, it just doesn't seem right or natural to me. I know the very high level dogs are bred for this stuff and will enthusiastically get a bird with a broken leg, so I am sure that an ear-pinch or an e-collar isn't going to deter him or scare him from getting the bird. The drive is too high. But, these dogs are also not typical of a Labrador and don't seem to even be the same breed. They were created by man specifically for this sport. I told a friend the other day at the hunt test as we were reeling in the differences between the field Labs and the "regular" Labs that the field Labs should be called Competition Retrievers, not Labrador Retrievers.

[barry581]

The bottom line for me, is that these higher level sports are for the people, not for the dogs. If I get to my dog to a point where it is e-collar or nothing as far as competition in this venue, then I'll just toss some birds for fun and every year spend a grand or so and go on a guided hunt and let my dog do what nature intended. Once we get to the point where the dog requires remote management and force, it just doesn't seem right or natural to me. I know the very high level dogs are bred for this stuff and will enthusiastically get a bird with a broken leg, so I am sure that an ear-pinch or an e-collar isn't going to deter him or scare him from getting the bird. The drive is too high. But, these dogs are also not typical of a Labrador and don't seem to even be the same breed. They were created by man specifically for this sport. I told a friend the other day at the hunt test as we were reeling in the differences between the field Labs and the "regular" Labs that the field Labs should be called Competition Retrievers, not Labrador Retrievers.

I could not agree with you more. Back in the day, Labs were bred to be calm, biddable hunting companions. Somewhere along the way, competitions kicked in, and the things asked of the dogs became harder and harder. So the competitors/breeders started breeding for the traits that could excel and win at these competitions. And now you have these high drive hard charging dogs who can be trained/forced to do a 450 yard blind retrieve. Even when I did hunt duck and pheasant, I never shot anything that would have required a retrieve of half that distance. I worked at championship level field trials when I lived in the UK back in the mid/late 80's. These events were a normal days shooting. Driven pheasant, each drive would result in 20-30 birds shot. Each dog sent for a retrieve. The dogs were doing exactly the same retrieves that were done on a normal days shooting. At the water tests I worked the longest retrieves I saw were maybe 100 yards.

Fast forward to today. A trial is set to test the limits of what a dog can do. It's artificial in that you would never see these situations in a normal days hunting. Yes, you hit a bird, a cripple runner. In the real world, maybe a 200 yard marked retrieve. Or a duck/goose is shot, lands in the water, current is moving the bird away from you. You send the dog, and it does its job. Maybe the dog runs down the bank, and enters the water 90 degrees from the fall, swims 20 yards, makes the retrieve and brings the bird to hand. At a trial this dog is NQ'd because it didn't swim 100 yards direct to the bird and back.

Honestly I'm amazed at what these dogs can do. On the other hand it saddens me as they are asking these dogs to do things that are unrealistic in the real world of hunting, and it has changed the breed from what it was originally meant to be.

[TuMicks]

Barry, I'll get back to you on that. I'm going to spend a day with a guy in Co. Leitrim (sp?) who has a pretty good reputation in breeding and running his labs. I'll have a chance to eat dinner with him and his wife and doubtless we'll have a LOT to talk about. Judging from what I see on line, those UK dogs look way more like mine than they do to conformation labs (on either side of the Atlantic.)

Your points are very well taken... if this were 1985. But 2 major things have happened since then (as things are wont to do.) First, the Hunting Retriever movement has remade the field sports. Now the regular guy can measure his dog against a standard. That is... most dogs are NOT competed. This has had a salutary effect on the breeding pools. Back in the day, you had a "Raider" dog (i.e., Super Chief) or a "Corky" dog (River Oaks Corky.) Now there is more demand, and also more dogs are proving themselves at a high level in both AKC and UKC.

The second and related development is not JUST the technology behind the e-collar, but the knowledge undergirding its use. Rex Carr wrote the book with Super Chief. But that was in the 1960's. Since then, the tool has become very refined and as a result, the exact OPPOSITE of what you describe has happened. In the old days, it took a very tough, very highly driven dog to survive and compete at National Field Champion levels. Now dogs with all sorts of temperaments have been able to show their native ability, birdiness, smarts, marking talent, water affinity, biddability and every other quality. And that is a demonstrable fact. If you review your comments, you'll search in vain for any reference to variable intensity. It is as if in your mind there is a remote signal being sent and it is always punitive and abusive. In point of fact (when used as it should be... ) it is rarely simply punitive and never abusive. For one very good reason, a dog that cannot manage the pressure stops. Stops doing, stops thinking... Think about what you're inferring in your comments. It is as if you're thinking that because we can deliver more pain, we can make dogs run faster and farther. It doesn't work like that and you know it.

Guys, I don't pretend to know the subtleties of the ring competitions nor the techniques you use and the principles on which they are based. I am completely sincere about that. But your comments are exceedingly shallow and pejorative. You don't know the sport, (BTW: Field trials were kinda British when American aristocracy ran the first ones in the 1930's. Once the GI's came back from the war and the middle class expanded, the retriever field sports became uniquely American. They became about the guy hunting water fowl from his blind or his john boat... not about the Belmonts and their line of beaters walking the fields of Long Island, NY.) So you don't know Labrador history in North America and you don't know about the science, the rules and mostly (and most sadly) you don't know these wonderful dogs and you are poorer for it.

[Sue]

So you don't know Labrador history in North America and you don't know about the science, the rules and mostly (and most sadly) you don't know these wonderful dogs and you are poorer for it.

This is the most arrogant post I've ever seen from you.
Barry has it right. You don't. Labs were developed by the British to be a gentleman's hunting companion. Barry has worked with and known some of the Lab legends in GB. This has nothing to do with looks, as you imply with your "Judging from what I see on line, those UK dogs look way more like mine than they do to conformation labs (on either side of the Atlantic.)" but rather with temperament. Barry HAS seen these dogs in person. Your referring to Branna as Rocket Dog or High Octane says it all. And that you can't control her without an e-collar. She's wild, can't settle, and that is NOT a true Lab temperament. Nor is it the ideal that the Brits want in their field dogs.
Keep in mind I have nothing against the use of an e-collar, so don't start in on me about that. But your implication that only you know it all about the history of Labs in the US is the most idiotic thing I've ever heard.

[windycanyon]

Our tests/ trials have become what they are because this is America... bigger is better for some folks, and more challenging/precise is better for others. FTs became what they did because we do have the talent out there and the means to shape that talent. There is only one winner at an FT, so they had to raise the bar. If you pull up the diagrams from the late 60's field trials, they resemble the SH tests I ran 10 yrs ago. They were not long marks from what I saw. So yes,the FTs got longer, more precision based, but to say those 400yd marks never happen in hunting is wrong. I sell a goodly percentage of pups to avid hunters and get to hear their stories of crippled geese sailing for 400 yds before they go down, etc and the conditions of those retrieves.

The notion that all FT dogs are high octane is incorrect as well, and I am seeing/hearing a trend out there of more and more VERY level headed, honest dogs winning. I've bred to one who was sired by my training partner's dog a few years ago and remember when she initially was disappointed in Willie as he didn't have a lot of fire--- but oh man, he was consistent and biddable. He unfortunately died young due to heat stroke, but his son is QAA2 now, and is every bit like him (and producing nice correct structure when put w/ the right girl). And I really don't think based on the FT I went to a few years ago that this is the exception, esp when you'd watch dog after dog on the line, calm as cukes, even so much as getting a drink from the water dish on the line while at honor. I was truly amazed and impressed.

Many of the MH tests here in the NW will knock the really high octane dogs out of the tests due to the temptations to break w/ live shot in your face flyers, and very tight (sometimes in-line) doubles and triples. I don't personally run / train at MH but I have pup owners and several friends who do and it's been a real joy to watch the teamwork. Honestly I have to echo what TuMicks said earlier, and that is get out and watch some of the higher level tests and trials. It is TRULY amazing to watch some of the teams, and to know that when they leave the grounds, that dog may be in for an ice cream or hamburger reward at their favorite joint. Many are truly these folks' best friends and pets in their off time, and for many, these competitions are mutually enjoyed.

The notion that advanced titles are only for the person is bunk. Sure this is an addictive sport to some, but without those, we would seriously be limited as to how to assess the talents of our gene pool. The titles ARE meaningful from a historical perspective, as well as from a breeding perspective. And now w/ Entry Express handling most of the entries, we also get to review the dogs' history (of passes and fails), so one can see if it took a dog 20+ tests to finish a title on a reputable pro vs the owner handled who only took 6, that's pretty neat stuff. The further you can go with the dog, the more you learn about how the dog thinks, reacts, etc. Without that data, it hurts (potentially) the working ability of our lines. It's easier NOT to do all of these competitions, and certainly cheaper, but I am starting to worry about some of the show lines that have no meaningful working titles on the pedigree because of the money and time excuse. Anyhow, I don't think of titles (at least those of the traditional levels) as being an ego thing at all. They give me information... the hunt test, obedience and tracking ones are the most important to me personally as a breeder, and to the folks looking to buy a pup to do more challenging work in the field or do SAR or whatever... believe me, those titles are meaningful here in the US. I also feel that structure/ conformation is very important though the show ring is not my bag for other reasons.

[Maxx&Emma]

Judging from what I see on line, those UK dogs look way more like mine than they do to conformation labs (on either side of the Atlantic.)

I am curious, have you ever looked at pictures of Barry's dogs, Sophie and Bruce? They are 2 of the nicest looking Labs and imported from top UK lines. They do not look like any of the US field line of Labs I have seen.