Senior and puppy together

[Toad]

Wasn't sure where this question belongs. Johnnie (10 weeks) plays harder than Harvey (almost 12) likes, and Harvey won't correct him. Harvey's MO when he's met other dogs who played too hard or even were aggressive with him has always been to outrun them - even when a pretty menacing dog has tried to fight him at the dog park, he just says seeya and bails. He is very friendly, not generally fearful, but I've never seen him correct another dog.

Johnnie ADORES Harvey and follows him everywhere, but he's constantly hassling him - nipping at ears and other dangly bits. I don't leave them together unsupervised and when they are together I intervene and/or Harvey just outruns him - but at some point Johnnie will be faster than Harvey and still play rougher than Harvey prefers. I can continue to discourage it and keep them apart a lot, but it bums me out - not to mention that I worry Johnnie will think he can just run up and grab any dog by the ear.

I hope I'm expressing this correctly. What should I do? Can I teach Johnnie to play more gently with Harvey? Will Johnnie end up having no manners since his role model won't correct him? Can I somehow tell Harvey it's okay to say no to play that hurts him?

[smartrock]

Oof, that can be a hard one. Some puppies are very bitey and pesky, especially until their baby teeth fall out and their adult teeth grow in. Didn't you say you got Harvey as a slightly older but still young dog? Maybe you weren't expecting the energy of a younger puppy. Our first lab, Chase, who we got as a 9 week old, was very energetic and bitey. I had clothes with holes ripped in them from him biting, racing past us and catching our clothes in his teeth, jumping at us and on us. He was an "only child" at the time and his attention was fully turned on us. He was an only child until he was 6 years old and he grew into a lovely, calm, and mostly well mannered dog. We did have to work on getting him not to jump on people and not to drag us along on walks, but you have to do that with most dogs.

Our second lab, Lark, we got at about 11 weeks of age, when Chase was 6. I was initially so pleased that she was so much less bitey until I realized she was focusing all her biting on Chase. The poor boy had scabs on the scruff of his neck from her vampiring him and tormenting him non-stop. He would never, never correct her. We spent a lot of time trying to redirect her energies onto us or onto toys. I tried to always have something else she could bite or carry in her mouth. The biting seemed to lessen as she got a little older, meaning in months, not years. But we did feel like we needed to protect Chase from her for a few months and we found nothing we did would get him to correct her pestering behavior.

With our younger boy, Henry, we had the opposite problem. We got him when he was 9 weeks old and Lark was 6. She was all about correcting him, without him even doing anything that we could see to provoke her. We had to protect him for several weeks through close supervision and never leaving them alone together until he got some size on him and she seemed less annoyed by him breathing the same air as her. He really didn't seem as pesky a puppy as either Chase or Lark had been but maybe that's because we were being so careful with them being together. He's always been exceptionally well-mannered.

So, young lab puppies can be very pestery and bitey. They are energetic and can make you want to pull your hair out. I think you will have to continue to redirect Johnnie's energies when he gets too obnoxious for a while. Try to have something else you can stick in his mouth if he's biting too much. Sometimes they can get more wild if they are overtired. If he hasn't had some rest time recently, you could put him in his crate for a little bit to rest and reset, like a baby taking an afternoon nap. While Johnnie is resting, you can spend some time with Harvey. He can come along with you whatever you're doing for example, so he knows he's still your special boy and that little interloper, who is taking so much of your attention, is not more important than he is. Include some short training sessions throughout the day, such as getting Johnnie to come to you when you call him, learning to sit, down, and "leave it" as well as one-on-one play sessions. You want him to start thinking you're the most intriguing thing around. When my puppies are 5-6 months old and have had most of their shots, I take them to group obedience classes.

Good luck. I'm only making suggestions based on what I've tried, not on any special secret knowledge. Hopefully some others can offer their insight as well.

[Snowshoe]

I think you need to take Johnnie for some supervised visits with Lark.

I read male dogs tend to be too forgiving of puppies and try to find an older bitch who has had pups. The female will correct the puppy. I'm sure it doesn't always work that way but it did for us. The neighbour's dog had never been bred but she took Oban leaping at her face and trying to play bite for our first couple of walks and then she laid down the law and he was polite with her and other dogs forever after. We started walking together, off leash, when Oban was three months old.

[smartrock]

I've heard female dogs, especially those who have had puppies, might correct that sort of naughty behavior also. Lark never had puppies but she was all about letting Henry know her limits. Do you know any Mama dogs?

[Toad]

My big mistake was not underestimating the puppy, it was - poignantly - overestimating Harvey's fuel tank these days. 3 years ago Johnnie's play level would have been fun and exciting for Harvey.

I absolutely separate them and make sure Harvey knows he's still #1 - Harvey sleeps on the bed while Johnnie sleeps in the crate, Harvey gets fed first every time, and Johnnie still doesn't even know about pizza (Harvey had two pizza crusts for dessert). Harvey sits on the porch while Johnnie goofs off in the yard pretty frequently, and I'm working on intervening and redirecting when they're out together and Johnnie gets too pushy.

I love the idea of introducing Johnnie to a mama dog. Surely one of my friends has one who is fully vaccinated and fairly trustworthy.

[Toad]

Update: They're doing MUCH better. Harvey has become more comfortable playing with Johnnie. If Johnnie is too rough with him Harvey will use a front leg to shove him off, and has also become comfortable growling and lightly nipping - but he's also more receptive to the rough play in general. I think he is getting more stamina as his fitness improves, and I started him on a generic glucosamine even though he's never seemed stiff - just in case.

I do still intervene when I need to, and Johnnie seems to be understanding "off" and "drop it" pretty well - it's important to me that Harvey be a role model, but he is NOT a chew toy and it isn't his job to raise Johnnie for me.

Currently typing this from 4 feet away from where the boys are wrestling - Johnnie has a squeaky rubber chicken in his mouth and is squeaking it merrily as Harvey has Johnnie's entire head in *his* mouth - it's chaos but they're much happier.

...And now it's the rope toy. Harvey will pick it up and dangle it in Johnnie's face until Johnnie grabs it, then usually Johnnie flops down to the ground and holds the rope while Harvey slides him around on the floor.

I am so, SO glad that they are learning to enjoy each other. It was really upsetting me that Harvey didn't seem to be having fun with Johnnie at first - he's still my top priority and I really didn't want a second dog to decrease the quality of his life.

[smartrock]

I'm glad to hear things are going nicely and that Harvey is initiating play, too, not just Johnnie. The mental image of Harvey with Johnnie's head in his mouth and the chicken in Johnnie's mouth is hilarious! Maybe if you have time you could post a photo of your boys playing together!

[Toad]

So, the mismatch between the boys continues. I feel really fortunate that they do truly love each other, so there is no fighting or significant jealousy - Harvey really enjoys Johnnie and has gotten really good at telling me when he needs a break by either gluing himself to my ankles if Johnnie is playing too hard or just going and lying down on the bed by himself.

We have a new tenant who worked as an assistant dog trainer for a couple of years and whose 4-year-old hound mix is a good size and energy level for Johnnie. That dog is maybe a little too liberal with his corrections, but his off-leash training is absolutely impressive - if he gets too annoyed with Johnnie, his mom can simply say, "Roux, out!" and Roux will remove himself from the situation.

I did several training sessions with a professional in-house trainer but she moved away right around the time that Roux and his mom arrived. Working with someone with experience as an assistant trainer isn't the same as a long time professional trainer, but it's still really helpful and of course the availability is unmatched. The tenant has now given me permission to get Roux out to play with Johnnie in her absence but she only offered that recently and I haven't taken her up on it.

It has been hard for me to do anything outside of the house with one of mine while leaving the other behind, because my time and energy are finite and I always feel like they would both benefit from an outing, but I need to just get over that, and I'm trying. Recently I needed to deliver a horse to her new owner about 2 hours away. I know both boys like car trips and I couldn't decide if I could handle taking both, or if I should take just Johnnie for the mental stimulation or just Harvey as a treat, because managing one dog while driving (alone with a horse in the trailer) is easier than two.

I called my partner and it was as clear as day to him that I should take Harvey as a treat, because a half day road trip wouldn't be *that* stimulating for Johnnie anyway, Harvey would appreciate the attention, and if anything were to go wrong (say, truck problems), a wild puppy would contribute to stress while Harvey would just sit quietly - so that's what I did and although I felt guilty in the moment, it was the right call.

I have recently learned that a local hunting kennel has drop in Saturday morning training sessions. I spoke to the kennel owner and explained our situation (I had not been positive from their website if a somewhat unruly overgrown puppy would be welcome, or if they were trying to focus on serious hunting candidates), and she said they welcome dogs of all training backgrounds/goals and that we should definitely come. I have to stop at the vet clinic today anyway to pick up Harvey's Metacam and some meds for the cats and I'll grab a printout of Johnnie's vaccine history while I'm there so I can take him to drop in at the kennel tomorrow. I *so* hope it's a fit - the kennel isn't too far, they have several trainers, and - even better - they have another site, a HUGE ranch where they host several different kinds of trials - nearby and I am so curious to explore what else Johnnie might be able to do.

I do think a big part of our problem was waiting so long to get Johnnie. I don't like to consider Harvey's mortality, and this has forced me to admit that he is much older than he used to be. As I've said, Harvey 3 years ago would have been DELIGHTED with Johnnie and they would have had a blast body slamming each other into exhaustion all day every day.

Harvey's vet put him on Adequan and Metacam, and made me switch him to senior food. I had still had him on adult food - definitely part of my struggle with accepting his age.

So - all in all, not the most perfect scenario but the guys are doing pretty well overall.

[smartrock]

Hi, Good to see you here with news about Harvey and Johnnie. It's interesting to see how different dogs correct or don't correct puppies. Henry is 4 years old and he tends not to offer any corrections. Like Harvey, he's more likely to come and sit by me or go into another room, hoping Joey won't follow him. That training/hunting kennel sounds like it could be pretty great for Johnnie, both maybe for a little training and definitely for getting some new activities for him to try out.

What benefits is the senior food supposed to offer for Harvey? I've always kept mine on regular adult foods and supplemented with Dasuquin or something like that if I wanted them to get more joint supplements. I never know if some of the magical ingredients are there in sufficient amounts to make a difference or more of a sales gimmick. I wouldn't feel bad about having him on an adult formula.

Thanks for the update!

[Toad]

Harvey was losing weight, but was on the same volume of the same food he had always been on. He had some weird low blood sugar events and became ravenous. The doctor thought perhaps his old food was less digestible and reminded me that they can't always eat the same amount forever - many labs get fat and need to be cut back, but Harvey's needs were different. So we switched to a senior diet (50/50 Pro Plan/Merrick because I'm a spaz about food and couldn't pick just one) and doubled his intake. Then he got pudgy, so we split the difference and cut him back to 1.5 x his former volume. I guess we can't be sure whether the senior diet was really what he needed - maybe he simply needs more calories now - but he's doing great so I'm leaving it for now.

Johnnie will benefit from more training and stimulation. I try to give him plenty of exercise (fortunately we have 100 acres so there's room to run), but I think mental exertion will be helpful as well.